Part of the infamous John Lewis/Andre Pederneiras Nova Uniao [New Union] Competition Team, Renato Verissimo, better known by his apelido [nickname in Portuguese] "Charuto", has an incredible resume at only 25 years old. The Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu community knows Charuto because of his consistent top place finishes in all the major tournaments in the last few years. NHB fans may remember him from The Contenders where his opponent was none other than NHB veteran and wrestling champion Mike Van Arsdale or from the Abu Dhabi World Submission Wrestling Championships [1998 and 1999]. I caught up with Charuto at the Lewis/Pederneiras Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Academy in Honolulu, Hawaii on July 14, 1999.

FCF: First of all, what exactly is the name of this academy, Nova Uniao or Lewis/Pederneiras?
Renato Verissimo: No it's the Lewis/Pederneiras academy, but Nova Uniao is the name of the group, all the academies. So, Nova Uniao is all the academies in Brazil, Grappling Unlimited [Egan Inoue's school] and all the black belts from Andre [Pederneiras], and John Lewis. So anyone who is going to fight in international competition, like the Worlds [Mundial or World BJJ Championships] or Pan-Ams [Pan-American BJJ Tournament], we are going to fight as Nova Uniao.

FCF: What does "Charuto" mean and how did you get that nickname?
Renato Verissimo: [laughs]. Charuto means cigar. This nickname is from 1987, I was playing water polo. We have two Renatos in water polo. I was about 145lbs and 6'1", so I look like a charuto that time. I don't know how my water polo coach [Solon] came up with that. All my friends who brought me to Jiu-Jitsu used that name. He gave me this nickname about 12 years ago. And I started Jiu-Jitsu in 1993.

FCF: I know it is common for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioners and Capoeiristas to have nicknames. Why does it seem like everyone in Brazil has a nickname and how did that come about?
EI: Capoeira has a lot of that. It's easier, because we have a lot of the same names. You can imagine. Over here is the same, in my school I have about 3 or 4 Kawikas [Hawaiian for David]. [laughs]. So, sometimes I gotta go by nicknames. In Brazil, it's pretty much the same. The others give the nickname, pretty much to tease your friends. Sometimes the nickname works [laughs] and it sticks.

FCF: Tell me about your martial arts background. How long have you been training and have you always trained under Andre Pederneiras?
EI: Yeah, always under Andre. I started January 2, 1993, so six years ago. I used to do Judo before, for four years, from 12 to 16 [years old]. And I did water polo from 14 to 19 [years old]. I jumped into Judo to water polo, water polo to Jiu-Jitsu.

FCF: Can you tell us about your accomplishments and don't be modest?
RV: I won the Brasileiro [Brazilian National Championship] in 1996. I got second in the Worlds [World BJJ Championship] in 1996 in my weight and the open [weigh class] division. I got third place in the Worlds in 1997. I won the Brazilian team competition [Brasileiro Equipes] in 1997. I got second in the Pan-Ams [Pan-American BJJ Tournament] over here [in Hawaii]. Basically, my record is about 80 fights and I won 69, I think, and loss 13, or something like that. I don't even count anymore.

FCF: You also entered the 1998 & 1999 Abu Dhabi World Submission Wrestling Championships. In what weight classes and how did 1998 compare to 1999? The level of competition seems to have increased, what is your opinion?
RV: The first one, in 1998, I was competing with guys [that weighed] 220lbs [88-98kg, 193.6-215.6lbs. division]. I was 180lbs. In 1999, I was 170lbs and I was fighting [guys that weighed] 195lbs [77-87kg, 169.4-191.4lbs division]. The first year was easier. There was a lot of not so good fighters and a lot of good fighters. This [year's] one, the 1999, the level came up big time. It was unreal! It was the toughest tournament ever! I mean without gi, like a wrestling competition. This was the first time I fought in rules that wasn't good for Jiu-Jitsu. It was mostly standing up, so when you jump to the guard the referee put us to stand up. So, it was like wrestling with the submissions. But we couldn't submit people because we couldn't have the time to get together [spend enough time] on the ground. So, it was super hard for us. But the level was good and the sponsors took good care of us.

FCF: Were you hoping to face any particular competitors at Abu Dhabi?
RV: Yeah, if I can fight my weight division, like 170 or 165lbs, or whatever, I want to fight Jean-Jacques [Machado, 1999 Abu Dhabi 66-76kg Champion & Best Technique award]. It was surprising that, without gi, his game is super good. He's got an aggressive game. Just somebody that is in my weight division and is going to be a good fight. Plus the Japanese guys, like [Hayato] Sakurai [2nd place in 1999 Abu Dhabi Open Weight Class division and Shooto Middleweight Champion], all those guys. It will bring me experience.

FCF: Which match was your toughest at Abu Dhabi?
RV: It was the Russian guy, the first guy [Kareem Barchlov, who went on to win the division].

FCF: Do you want to face any particular BJJ guys?
RV: Oh yeah, get a lot of guys. I want to keep fighting. I had to stop now because I have to teach. I had the opportunity to come over here and open something and to teach. You got to sacrifice yourself a little bit, but I'm still young, 25. So there is a lot of good guys to fight in my division. There's Leo Viera, got Saulo [Ribeiro], one of the best guys now. Over here, I want to fight with the Machado guys, anybody. I just want to compete. I don't have anybody that, "Oh, I want to fight him." I just want to fight, whatever comes, it's all good.

FCF: What are your training methods, including how long does it take you to prepare for major tournaments?
RV: I do a lot of mat training. I try to stay on the mat as long as I can. And I do lift weights. I do a lot of swimming exercises. I get together with Egan [Inoue], so we go to UH [University of Hawaii at Manoa], with the UH coaches, who gives us a lot of tips. So, I have Egan to watch my physical preparation. He knows a lot. We go to the beach and do some sprints. Something real good for explosion and stamina. Jogging, not that much, because my knees start to feel a little bit [sore]. Like for lifting weights, we do it for like 20 minutes, circuits [circuit training]. I try to watch what people are doing and see if it's good for me.

FCF: What about before you came here, like when you were back in Brazil?
RV: In Brazil, I was just training. But now a days, it's hard. If you train as much as I want to train…how can I say…you can get hurt more [often]. So, now a days, I do my physical preparation real good. And my mat time, I do, but not like in Brazil. Yeah, because in Brazil, I got hurt a lot [because of] my [body] type, I'm super long. [And because of] my type of game, I do guard a lot. Now a days, I can feel it. I participate in sports [all] my life, since I was 10 years old. All the sports I did was like rough sports. In Brazil, I used to go to the Judo academies a lot. I used to go three times a week. I don't have much [people to] train [against] here, so I have to compensate with my physical train [preparation]. If I'm going to fight against somebody like Saulo [Ribeiro], the level that's way above the average, I have to go back to Brazil and stay there for a couple months for this kind of competition.

FCF: How do you compare training in Brazil with that of the US? A lot of people tell me, and I have noticed when I was in Brazil, that when Brazilians train, they are more aware of positions and points [as scored in BJJ tournaments] and don't train as aggressively as Americans. Americans, on the other hand, generally train too aggressively and with too much power, often times at the expense of technique.
RV: Yeah, probably because of the body type in Brazil. In Brazil, you don't see people that strong, as over here [in the US]. When I first came to the United States, I felt a lot of power in the people. They use a lot of strength. But, they don't consider or believe how [effective] the techniques is. It takes time. People over here you got to do a lot of drills. In Brazil, you do a lot of drills, but the people don't force the moves. They [Americans] like to do a super tough warm up or super tough physical conditioning when they go to the train. Over here [in the US], I have to always consider [suggest] positions or drills. The strength is good, it's important, but it's not everything. The techniques make the thing go better. In Brazil, they train [lighter], we can feel that. We [Brazilians]go for the technique. We go more for the position. Over here, when they learn something, they just want to try and overpower. But now, in the United States, I start to get used to [that] already. I have been here for about 2 years already.

FCF: Do you change your training methods when preparing for a submission tournament where the gi is optional?
RV: Yeah, oh yeah. When I start to train for these things I take my gi off and train basically without gi. I train a lot of wrestling, a lot of knee bars...the different kinds [of submissions]. In this kind of competition, you're not going to look for no sweep or something. It's hard, you know. Because without gi, it's pretty different, you got to work a lot on your grip. I used to train wrestling a lot. I don't forget [about] the gi. I like to train two times a week with the gi. But, everyday, I have to train without the gi.

FCF: Which do you prefer with gi or without?
RV: I like with the gi. Without the gi, it's fun, but with gi, it's more technical.

FCF: Please tell all the BJJ guys your philosophy on training? Are you more of a strategist that plans out your attack or a person who constantly looks for submissions?
RV: No, before I used to look for submissions. But the tournament now a days, the level gets so tight, so even now, and the rules don't let you go for a submission. You got to fight a 10 minute match. It's kind of hard to make some black belts tap now a days. The level is super competitive. So I'm looking for strategies. I got to see who I'm going to fight. I got to see some tapes now. Now you got to study a lot, the game of who your going to fight. I did that a lot.

FCF: So basically, now you go for the points game?
RV: Yeah, if I get the opportunity to submit, of course I'm going to submit. But the first thing I look at is to get the scores. If I feel good and I feel like I can go for it, OK. But, if not, I'm not going to force it. I don't force submissions. I force a good game. I'm going to make sure that I win.

FCF: Nova Uniao recently opened an academy in Honolulu, on the island of Oahu. You already have an academy in Hilo [on the Big Island]. Why did Lewis/Pederneiras decide to open a school on Oahu, where there is already three different organizations [Relson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, Brazilian Freestyle Jiu-Jitsu, and Grappling Unlimited Hawaii], four head instructors [Relson Gracie, Romolo Barros, Joao Morais and Egan Inoue] who have seven different schools?
RV: Like in Hilo [Hawaii], it was kind of an accident. I was in Las Vegas, training with John Lewis and one of John's students, who I was living with him at that time, asked [me to teach in Hilo]. He lives in Hilo. One day he called me and said let's go to Hilo, I have a lot of friends down there and they want to see Jiu-Jitsu. There's no Jiu-Jitsu on the island, I got a place [to train] there and everything. So, I said OK, lets see. In [Las] Vegas, there was John Lewis. I don't want to make any kind of competition there with the academy. So I went to Hilo and I like it there. It's a super mellow place. And I knew that John, at that time, was thinking about opening something around there and I said perfect. It's going to be perfect. I stay down there [in Hilo] and I can come over here [to Honolulu] and help them out.

FCF: You weren't worried about the market being saturated down here?
RV: No, because we believe a lot in our work. We come over here and we think we can get the competition, plus make things more fun. We get more guys to compete and we can get more tournaments. So we just add a little bit. We come here especially for that because sometimes it's super hard to open a business and just stay there alone [where no other school is]. There's nobody to compare [with], there's nobody to compete, so the people get kind of bored. Now a days, I got to bring all my boys from Hilo to Honolulu to compete. Since I came over here, I think there is plenty of space over here. Plus we trust our work. We have plenty stuff to show. So it's all good.

FCF: You had to miss the Mundial (World BJJ Championships) this year because no one was here to teach at the academies [his top students went to the Mundial].
RV: I'm going to consider teaching a lot and make the business run good. I got to sacrifice a little bit. Once you start to teach, you cannot teach and train. It's hard. I wish to keep training but…in my case, I was studying engineering in Brazil. And I was going to college and I had to stop, to continue Jiu-Jitsu. So, my family did not like that very much. The situation in Brazil is not good to open any business, so I have the opportunity and I cannot wait. I just came and I am not worried about that now. I'm just thinking to keep my mind focused on teaching, making students good. I wanted to take a little rest too, let my body rest. I'm learning different things. I'm learning wrestling. I'm learning kickboxing. I'm trying to expand my background a little bit.

FCF: Do you have any up and coming matches?
RV: It's nothing for sure, but I want to try and fight at the International Joe Moreira competition, Brazil against the United States. Whoever wants to match up with me. Over here there's not too many black belts competing out here because everybody out here got to work, got to teach. Hopefully over there [at the Moreira tournament], there is going to be someone to compete against.

FCF: You're a young guy, how long do you plan on competing in BJJ?
RV: I want to keep competing until I my knees feel bad, until I feel spent. I want to keep going. That's why right now, I'm just resting now, giving my mind a rest. You're a fighter, so you know how the pressure works. How much you got to train, especially in Brazil. In my situation, I started Jiu-Jitsu when I was pretty old. I was 19 years old. So I had to catch up more than everybody else. I stayed at the academy from 7:30 in the morning till 9:00 at night. So I would stay all day for six years straight. So now, I'm going to see if the thing is worth it. If I'm going to get some cash. [laughs]. After that, if things are running good I'll be back. I'm still young, so I can do that.

FCF: In Brazil, there is tremendous support for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu competitors. Their gis are covered with various companies' patches and BJJ tournaments are shown on Brazilian national TV. It is widely believed in the US that all the top BJJ competitors are sponsored by companies that allows them to train all day, every day. Is this true?
RV: In Brazil, I don't know now a days. Jiu-Jitsu in my times, I'm talking like two years ago, the time that I left Brazil, you don't get sponsored because of how good you are. It's how many people know you, how good your connections are. Any kind of sport, I think is like that. Sometimes, I go back with titles and they say "you are not from Gracie" or you don't know nobody. Maybe things are getting better, but I [experienced] a lot of that. They don't trust as much. I never got paid for training. My sponsors was just people who knew me and believed in my work and my techniques and helped me. Judo, I believe there is a lot of good sponsors, but Jiu-Jitsu guys still have a lot of things to work out. Not too many people are into martial arts, so companies aren't interested. It's not an Olympic sport or anything. I don't know about in United States.

FCF: The United States is terrible for sponsorships.
RV: Exactly.

FCF: What do you think of the skill level of the students here in Hawaii and the continental US as compared to Brazil?
RV: In Brazil, it's way, way better. In the United States, it's [BJJ] still kind of new. You talk about 8 to 10 years, it's kind of new for a sport to grow up. Just in my neighborhood, in Brazil, there is three academies of Jiu-Jitsu. The Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil is much more competitive and the people train a lot more. Over here [in the US], they start to train because the Gracie family bring it here. Their considered to teach more slow, basic stuff and in Brazil we always do more. Even the training down there is more, get more people to train with. Over here is growing up, but in Brazil, the level is way more [at a higher level].

FCF: Although there has been numerous Americans that have become BJJ World Champions in the lower belt ranks, it is generally accepted that the level of BJJ in Brazil is higher than that of the US. How long do you think it will take for the US to catch up to Brazil, if possible?
RV: I cannot say, I really don't know. In my situation, at my academy in Hilo, I got already one guy who got second in the Worlds (BJJ Championship, as a blue belt) now he's going to fight again, BJ [Penn]. I got Regan [Penn], he won that competition already [also as a blue belt]. Maybe, I start to teach over here, maybe about 3 or 4 years, I think. You going to start see people coming up because a lot of teachers from Brazil came in [to the US]. On the average, it depends how you are going to teach and how often you are going to teach. How hard you want to make guys to be good. I don't have the Gracie name on me. I have the Nova Uniao name, it's the best name now a days, but they [Americans] don't know yet. That's why I have to prove how good the Nova Uniao name is. Maybe in 3 years, we can talk, maybe do another interview and see how the things are going to work.

FCF: I heard through the coconut wireless [Hawaii's grapevine] that you are considering fighting NHB. Is this true?
RV: Yes, before I wouldn't even think about it because the rules was too rough. Now a days there is a lot of rules and a lot of technique [that are banned], like no headbutts. It's coming closer to a sport. Before [all] you see is blood, people would headbutt each other. They wouldn't use techniques. For my weight division, for the things I think is good or not, now a days, there is shootfighting. You can fight this a lot. If you enter NHB and don't pay attention to the rules and the techniques, you can get hurt seriously. I want to keep fighting my whole life.

FCF: Which events would you like to fight in and which opponent's would you like to face? And how long are you planning on competing in NHB?
RV: Maybe next year I would like to compete against the Japanese fighters because they have a lot of technical fighters down there. And for my weight division, I'm 173lbs, there's nobody [specifically] that I want to fight. I just want to compete. Whoever comes, if I'm prepared, it's all good. People always aim for somebody, but I just want to train and have fun. I want to go to Shooto in Japan. I am also going to try the Super Brawl, here in Hawaii, because I have an academy in Hawaii. And if I do it, for me, it will be for the business and for the appearance and more people are going to know me here.

FCF: What about the UFC?
RV: I don't know…my teacher [Andre Pederneiras] fights now and I think it's the same weight division as him so…

FCF: Your going to leave the UFC for him?
RV: Yeah, I want to do something that's not going to bother him. That's why I want to do Shooto. I'm going to keep fighting all the time, just to get experience. I want to see how the things are going to work. If I like it, I will keep fighting, if not, I'll keep teaching.

FCF: The Lewis/Pederneiras team has been one of the top BJJ schools in Brazil, especially in the lighter weight classes, and has had a few of its top fighters enter NHB [John Lewis, Joao Roque, and most recently Andre Pederneiras] with a lot of success. What do you think of their performances in NHB?
RV: They are in a way more experienced than me. Joao Roque, I was a white belt when he was a black belt. And I think you need that. You need a lot of experience in your mind and about your training. My teacher, he had to stop fighting to teach, for 5 or 6 years to build his academy. But now, he has [high quality students to] train for him. All his black belts are top black belts and they help him out a lot with things. And Joao Roque is the same, he has his students now so he can train. I think that's the way. You got to see how you are going to use your students. I believe the same way. First, they build the academy so they can help you out with the things. Like when Joao come over here, he goes back to Brazil to train Gustavo. His level goes up way more. When I go back to Brazil to train, we don't need to go another place else to train. For boxing, yes, but for Jiu-Jitsu or grappling, we don't need. My teacher has everything at his academy.

We have a lot of [good] lighter guys because we just have lighter guys at the academy. We are not lucky to have big guys. We just have a couple big guys like Raphael Carino (fought in UFC 9). The big guys [at our academy] already have the skill and do real good. I wish we had more big guys at our academy. It's just a matter of that we don't have big guys. And in Brazil, it's hard to see big guys anyway.

FCF: What do you think are the keys to Nova Uniao's success?
RV: Work, man work. I was down there since 1993. That was the first Brasileiro team competition at that time. In 1987, they had a vale tudo, which was the first time I heard of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I didn't know, I was playing water polo at that time. And I came to my teacher because my friend from water polo was teaching at my place and my teacher's [BJJ place]. It [Andre's school] was close to my academy and I saw it and I was going there [BJJ school] everyday for the first three months. But after that I didn't have money and I couldn't afford to pay the academy. He [Andre Pederneiras] saw that I had potential at that time and he would watch the tournaments and go to the academy and teach me every single move and every single position. He wasn't getting paid that much, but the work that he did, how fast he made me…not just me but Shaolin [Vitor Ribeiro, no relation to Saulo], Robinho [Robson Moura], all the top fighters now. He works super hard, it's unbelievable! That's the only thing that makes me work, makes me think. I think that his work was perfect. He had to stop fighting. He had to sacrifice himself. But when he came back now, he came back relieved. He can train now and he can get the top guys to take care of his academy so the level of the academy doesn't drop. You have a school, a business. You cannot just train and teach. If you train, you need somebody to back you up at the academy. He worked so hard. All the people that came now, since 1993, Shaolin, Raphael, me, went and got together for Nova Uniao. Plus, he's such a good person. Such an honest guy, I never did see him get mixed up with the politics. He's not the guy that's always going to be talking, always going to be in the interviews. He works, he wants to make people good and he knows how to make people super good. He knows how to coach amazingly. I think that's the key. If you want to make somebody real good, if you like him a lot and you want to make things happen, that's a good guy to talk to.

FCF: What are the future plans for the Lewis/Pederneiras team and for yourself?
RV: Lewis/Pederneiras has an academy here [in Hawaii]. We got an academy in Las Vegas, We have one more black belt from Brazil, from my school, his name is Gustavo. He is in [Las] Vegas now, training with John [Lewis]. And we have Steve [Da Silva]. He is going to get black pretty soon. So we have me, Steve, John, Gustavo, we got Egan Inoue now. So we have about five fighters now. We are going to make a good Nova Uniao team here [in the US] and try and compete against anybody. This is my plans, because people over here [in the US] got to know [who we are]. You cannot just talk, you got to go and fight. When the academies are set up over here, we are going to get together and train super hard and we are going to go to the mats and challenge anybody, the Machados, or any Gracie that wants to compete. Just for competition, not about NHB. The Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu name is super big in the United States, a lot of people want to stick with BJJ and compete. We want to do the Nova Uniao tournaments over here [in Hawaii] and in [Las] Vegas. Open more academies, just keep working. We got together with John Lewis. He's an excellent fighter. He got a lot of NHB techniques. Different schools, different ways of training, different types of training, we have a lot to show. You are going to hear about us.

FCF: Do you have anything else you would like to say?
RV: I just got to say thanks to a lot of people who helped me out. Tommy, from [Las] Vegas, he's my kickboxing coach. I used to live at his house. He helped me out a lot in the beginning. John [Lewis], he always helped me out too. Sponsors, well you can't say sponsors, but just people who helped me out, Maitai from Designer Body [owner of a local supplement store] and Beware [clothing line]. They believe in my work and my sport. And of course the Penns [the family who invited him and let him live with them in Hilo, Hawaii]. And my students too, they help and they make me happy. Some went to Brazil [3 of the Penn brothers], they fight, and they show good work and the thing that I like. And thanks to you guys [the excellent staff at Full Contact Fighter. Wink, wink]. It's a pleasure, for you to come down here and let everybody know about Nova Uniao.

FCF: Thank you for the interview.