Hilo, Hawaii is a small town where everyone knows each other. It is just like many other small towns across the country, except that down the roads are some active volcanoes and it seems to be always raining [If you have visited Hilo, you will know what I mean]. Everyone is laid back and it is an old country type of atmosphere. Sometimes people say that there is always calm before a storm. The Penn brothers are like a thundershower in the world of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Originating from this calm town, they have moved to the mainland and starting their training, accenting it with some additional training back home in Hilo and in Oahu. BJ Penn has stood out among this talented family of four technical Jiu-Jitsu practioners as the family champion. BJ has ripped through the west coast tournament scene and has had success in the extremely competitive Brazilian circuit. After an eventful couple of tournaments, one in Brazil and one in Florida, I caught up with BJ in California by phone on Sunday, April 23, 2000.

FCF: How long have you been training Jiu-Jitsu?
BJ Penn: About three and a half years, around there. All the time, everyday.

FCF: What schools and under what instructors have you studied under?
BP: I started with Ralph Gracie at his academy up here [Northern California] and then I studied with Renato Verissimo [from Lewis/Pedeneiras Jiu-Jitsu] in Hilo and with Andre Pedeneiras [Head Instructor of Lewis/Pedeneiras, a subgroup of Nova Uniao] in Brazil.

FCF: How do the training methods and techniques differ from Ralph and Nova Uniao?
BP: It's about the same. The training is about the same. Ralph is really excellent. He has a very strong base. He's a very good teacher, a good guy. There is just more higher belts to train with at Nova Uniao. To me, I think training should always be with a lot of drills, no matter what kind of drills, kind of like how wrestling is. They don't really show positions. The position is there and boom, you just drill it non-stop…start drilling non-stop for a long time, then boom, stop grab another position, start drilling it. One thing I learned from Charuto [nickname for Renato Verissimo who runs the Hawaii Nova Uniao school] is position is not a time of talking story and sitting down. Position is a time for more of just sweating the whole time. You don't just sit down and "talk story" because warm-ups is over. Positions is just as important as the sparring itself. You should be sweating, boom, boom, boom, whatever move it is, an arm drag or something, boom. You're just doing the position non-stop back and forth, both sides, boom, boom, boom. Just sweating, sweating doing the position. It's always good when you're doing the positions. You do the position so hard that you're sweating. That's what I like. I learned that and Charuto is one of the guys that showed me that.

FCF: What about the techniques?
BP: Yeah, they use different techniques. Both are good. They both have great technique.

FCF: I know all three of your brothers also train in BJJ and have had great success. I always joke with one of your brothers that if you have Penn blood, then you have to be good in Jiu-Jitsu. All of your brothers are named JD, including yourself, except one. Can you explain that situation and why everyone calls you BJ?
BP: [laughs] I'm the youngest one in the family, that's me, JD. So, like the baby [of the family] so they just call me BJ [for baby J], from a little kid.

FCF: Is there any reason why your dad called all you guys JD?
BP: I have no idea.

FCF: Can you give me a breakdown of your brothers as far as their strengths and accomplishments?
BP: JD [1998 Pan American Blue Belt Silver Medallist, now in California] is the strongest one of us. Reagan [1999 Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu World Blue Belt Champion] is pretty strong, but not as strong as JD, but Reagan is almost as flexible as me, so he's kind of stronger than me. He [Reagan] doesn't train too much right now. JD is not training too much… actually both are not training too much, only if I force them to go train. JD will train, but Reagan I really got to force him to go train if I need a training partner right now. There's really a lack of training partners where I am right now.

FCF: What about your brother Jay down here [in Hawaii]?
BP: Yeah, I don't get to train with Jay too much, but really, he's technical.

FCF: How did you feel when Reagan won in '98 and you took 2nd after Reagan just began training?
BP: When Reagan won, I was really happy for him. I just felt like I made some mistakes in the end. I got over anxious. I hadn't submitted anybody in my previous four fights and I really wanted to submit my last opponent. I forgot that I was there to win and the guy was very good. I can't take anything away from him. I just made a few mistakes. I was real happy that Reagan won, but I felt like I could have won the whole thing, but I messed up and made some mistakes.

FCF: How much, percentage wise, do you think is the performance of a student due to the teacher and how much is due to the discipline and dedication of the student?
BP: I'd have to say that it's all in your discipline and how good you want to be. I think everyone can be good, you just got to want to be good and never give up and keep trying. It's good to have a good teacher to show you. It depends on how much the teacher wants to teach you too, if he wants to hold back [techniques] from you or he really wants to show you, if he really wants to make you a champion. So, it's hard to say a percentage, but it's mostly on yourself. As long as you got a decent teacher, he knows Jiu-Jitsu well, then it's all up to you.

FCF: Many people in the BJJ community are amazed at the rate that you have progressed in BJJ in so short time. What do you attribute your ability to internalize the techniques of BJJ so fast?
BP: I really don't know. I train in Jiu-Jitsu because it's fun. As soon as it's not fun, I'm won't be doing Jiu-Jitsu anymore. Maybe that's why I excelled at it so much, because of the reason why I do it. I do it because it's fun, not to hurt somebody or to be really rough with somebody. I do it for my own enjoyment. I'm not out there for, what I call, the wrong reasons or to be a tough guy and hurt people. I'm just there because I like it. I just try my hardest and try to never give up, no matter what, but that's just about it.

FCF: Can you tell your accomplishments and us about the competitions that you have entered?
BP: I haven't won the world championships [in Brazil] yet, but I'm going to try this next year around. I just came back from Brazil, from the team championships and Nova Uniao won over there. I haven't really won any real big tournaments. I've won the ones around the US, pretty much all the ones in the US on the west coast, but I'm still waiting to win the Mundial [worlds championships].

FCF: Why don't we talk about the last team championships and your matches?
BP: First guy, he was a judo guy so everybody told me, 'don't play around, just go straight to your guard." I like to do that anyway, [for] the Jiu-Jitsu matches, but I swept him. I mounted him and then I got his arm. The second guy I pulled to the guard, swept him, pass, mount. He took me off his back, then I swept him again to the mount and got his arm with like one minute left or something.

FCF: Let's talk about your most recent tournament, the Pan-American Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Championships in Florida. I understand that you had a little "scuffle." Please tell us about that.
BP: I was down by an advantage the whole fight and maybe in around the last minute I finally swept the guy. He's good. He's real strong, knows a lot so I finally swept him and I was relieved and happy and then I guess he didn't hear the bell or something, but when I was re-watching the tape of what happened. As soon as the bell sounds, you can see, he starts to go a lot harder on my foot because I let go of his sleeve. Because I was holding his sleeve, he really couldn't grab my foot. So, when I let go of his sleeve, he went for my foot. Maybe it was an accident, I don't know.

FCF: What happened after that?
BP: Because he was going for my foot and I was kind of just relaxing, I thought that he would stop anytime now. The pressure just got more and more intense so I slapped him in the back of his head so he would let go of my foot. He let go and tried to slap me and then things got out of hand [both BJ and his opponent were disqualified from the tournament]. I really wished I didn't do that because I feel like that right there cost me the gold medal. That was the first time I competed in the Pan Am's and I really wanted to win it. I can't believe that happened. I was bummed. It felt worse than losing. Losing like that, being disqualified, was like I wasn't even there.

FCF: Was that the finals?
BP: Semi-finals. The next one was the finals. The funny thing was that the referee that disqualified me and who would never let me come back in, even though the guy who's school that I fought against wanted me to go back in…the guy who won the whole thing [BJ's weight class and the gold medal] was from his school, In-fight, so that was kind of weird, no matter what he would not let me in, even though the other guy's coach [from the BJ's disqualified opponent] told him, "No, no, it's ok. Put him in. The guy foot locked him after the bell," but he still wouldn't let me fight. I didn't understand that and then his [the referee's] partner won the Pan Am's after one or two fights. Pretty ridicules. [The tournament director, Carlos Gracie Jr., stated that if the referee gave the ok, BJ could continue on to the tournament to fight one of his students/teammates in the finals. The referee did not let BJ back in the tournament and his student won the weight class by default.]

FCF: Was that you first or second fight?
BP: That was my second fight.

FCF: What happened in the first fight?
BP: First fight, I didn't feel really great this tournament. It was kind of weird, but I won 4-0 and swept him twice and I was just trying to pass [the guard]. It felt kind of weird, but it was ok.

FCF: The Pan-American Championship is basically the largest BJJ competition in America that pits the best of Brazil versus the best of America. How do you feel that Americans match up to the Brazilians now that Jiu-Jitsu has had a chance to spread?
BP: The people in America is, I think, are normally bigger, maybe a little stronger because they have access to supplements, but the Brazilians are still better technically at Jiu-Jitsu right now. It will take some more time before the Americans start matching them technically. I mean all of them, of course, there's some that do. I've seen some really good American guys out there, but all in all, the Brazilians have been doing it too long.

FCF: How long do you think it will take before there is a level playing field with the Brazilians?
BP: I really don't know. I couldn't say. I think that a lot of good guys will come out slowly, like some guys that will be winning, but as a whole, it's just hard to say.

FCF: From what I have heard, Margarita [Fernando Pontes] seemed to rip through the black belts, winning both his weight class and the absolute. Did you see any of his matches and what are your impressions of his technique?
BP: Yup, I've saw a few of his matches. He was real good. That looked good, what he did, finished everybody. I really didn't pay too much attention, but every time I looked over, he was getting ready to finish the guy.

FCF: What other notable black belt matches did you see and give me your views on each fighter and match?
BP: I really didn't get to see too many black belt fights because the first day I went I didn't go to the tournament the first day, just real quick, and then the second day, I really only got to see the masters and a few of Margarita's fights, so I really didn't see too many fights.

FCF: Was the tournament organized well since there were reports of over 750 competitors?
BP: I don't know how it was organized, the weigh-ins, I was just happy I didn't pre-register because I saw some people that did pre-register and [laughs] they were waiting in the line for five hours and they only got half way. I didn't pre-register so I went in this line and [there] was only five people that didn't pre-register so I got in right away [laughs]. I'm glad I didn't pre-register.

FCF: Do you feel that Americans have a harder time winning against Brazilians in tournaments because of hometown or home country favoritism?
BP: Maybe, but it would be more like home team type off thing. It's the funniest thing. Especially in the US, every time a school holds a tournament, they always win their own tournament. They never seem to win anybody else's, but they always win their own. I see that all the time. It's actually funny to look and see [that].

FCF: Do you think that since you are one of the best Americans and have had so much success in the tournament circuit that you are a marked man in Brazil?
BP: No, I don't think so. I wonder what they [the Brazilians] think actually. I wonder if they think I'm not that good. I use more strength. I'm not that technical or I'm just flexible, who knows?

FCF: Do you feel that your affiliation with a school (Nova Uniao which means New Union) that is heavily based in Brazil helps to get you fair calls in your matches?
BP: Yes, I believe that it would sometimes, for sure.

FCF: How often do you have to train with your team in Brazil?
BP: Yeah, that's the thing. I don't get to train with them, only when I go to Brazil. So, I don't get to train with then that much, but when I go, it's awesome training. They have a lot of good small guys for me to train with and I like it a lot.

FCF: How many times per year do you get to go over there to Brazil?
BP: Only when I compete, so maybe once or twice a year. Twice if I'm lucky, about once a year, I go [to Brazil]. Over here, I really don't get to train too much. I mostly just train with my brothers and stuff. If I'm lucky, maybe with a friend in a garage or something.

FCF: How long do you normally stay in Brazil?
BP: A couple weeks. The most I've ever stayed is a couple months. I usually stay about three weeks at the most.

FCF: How much do you think your game improves after training sessions in Brazil?
BP: I think that my reactions and reflexes improve more because all those guys are just so good over there. I think mostly my reactions improve a lot. Like the positions over there are unbelievable. It's like a position factory right now, just making all types of new positions. I know that so many new positions are coming out right now out of that school [Nova Uniao]. It's not really the positions that pick up; it's the whole game I pick up over there.

FCF: I understand that you have started to practice wrestling as well. What caused this?
BP: I was watching all the UFC's and I was like, "I got to learn wrestling." You can't just go out there and sit on your ass in a fight or something. I went out to the Mundial one year and was talking to Garth Tayler [BJJ student and ADCC competitor] and he was like, "Yeah man, there's a wrestling school right by your house. You should go check it out." So, I was like, "Right on." He gave me the coach's number so I called him up and I think I'm going to be competing for the next season.

FCF: Where's this at?
BP: West Valley College, not too far from my house, right down the road. Maybe if I get some success here, I'll try to walk on to a big school. I'm going to see.

FCF: Your teacher Andre Pedeneiras, who knocked out Rumina Sato and teammates Joao Roque [Contenders, Valetudo Japan] and Rafiel Carino [UFC] have had much success in NHB and MMA events. Do you have any ambitions to enter NHB events to test your skills?
BP: Yeah, maybe in the future...after I get good in wrestling and some good stand-up. I want to be well rounded before I go in. I don't want to just be a pure Jiu-Jitsu guy. I would really like to fight in Japan, if anywhere.

FCF: Does the fact that your teachers and teammates fight NHB change the way they teach Jiu-Jitsu as compared to the schools that are 100% sport orientated?
BP: No, I think they know the difference. They can go back and forth very well in between [sport and valetudo]. When they have to train for fighting and when they have to train for Jiu-Jitsu tournaments, I just think they train different.

FCF: Is there a requirement of belt rank before your instructors allow their students to enter NHB competitions?
BP: Not that I know of, maybe, but I don't know.

FCF: How do the fighters from your school adjust their training before a fight?
BP: The training just gets really, really hard. All the guys show up. Everybody's there, all the world champions, Leo [Santos], Shaolin [Victor Riberio], Robinho [Robson Moura]. All the good guys are there, and even their purple and brown belts, all the guys are good. All of them have that same game, that real good flashy game. All of them do it and the training just goes non-stop. Everybody gets to train with each other. If Charuto was there, there would be even one more good guy there. This is the best training man. All the guys training there non-stop for hours.

FCF: Have you had the opportunity to help your teachers and teammates prepare for a fight?
BP: No, I never did. I've seen him [Andre Pedeneiras] before when he came here to fight Pat Miletich, but he was already trained and he was just resting for the fight.

FCF: Good luck with your career and upcoming competitions and Thanks.
BP: Thanks.

Post World Championship Interview

I always knew BJ Penn was a great BJJ player, possibly the best in the US. I went to compete in the World Championship of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, also known as the Mundial. I heard the news of Royler Gracie, the four-time world champion, pulling out of the competition because of a neck and back injury. Just as before, BJ was promoted to black belt, the Monday before the Mundial. Last year, he was promoted to brown belt the same week of the competition. He went on to take third place, losing to the eventual winner named Terere [who won the black belt world championship this year in the weight class two above BJ's]. I saw BJ in Brazil and told him that this is his year to take the title. He calmly, but with a hint of confidence told me, "I hope so." The peso pena [or flyweight] class is always filled with the toughest competition. Even without the defending world champ, this year was no different. BJ went on to win the division making him the first American Black Belt World Champion of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I called BJ to perform a post tournament interview with this incredible, but humble, champion on August 13, 2000.

FCF: Last time we saw each other, you have just won the world championship. You're the first American to win the black belt division in the Mundial. How does that feel being the first American to accomplish this difficult task?
BJ: I've never pictured myself being there [winning the division], but I was finally there. It was a dream for me, so when I was finally there, I didn't even feel like it was that big of a thing. I guess that it didn't hit me then, maybe I was in shock. I don't know. But as every day goes by, I start to feel like I did something good. But at that time, I was just glad I won and I didn't lose. Winning's not that great, it's just that losing sucks.

FCF: I have to say that after watching many competitions that I was very impressed with your aggressive game. Most people currently get a couple points and stall for the win. You actively looked to advance your position and attempted to finish every opponent. Was this your strategy for every match?
BP: It's always my strategy to try to finish the guy as much as possible. I only got to finish one guy though, at the mundial.

FCF: How did you feel when you just got your black belt and now knew that you had to compete in the black belt division?
BP: I was really excited. I was up for the challenge. I wanted to see how good I was against the best in the world at Jiu-Jitsu. So I was really glad that I got to fight in the black belt division to put myself up against the best.

FCF: Were you a little worried because you probably went in thinking that you were going to clean out the brown belt division, but were promoted to black shortly before the tournament?
BP: No, I wasn't really disappointed because I fought in the brown belt division last year and I kind of wanted to fight in the black belt division this year. I felt that I was ready. I wasn't really disappointed, I was actually up to it.

FCF: You pretty much ran over your first opponent and ended up submitting him. Did you want to finish this fight as soon as possible to keep yourself rested or did you just let things unfold and reacted?
BP: When I got his back in the beginning, I was really thinking to finish, but then I was thinking maybe I should take it easy and slow down and just wait for the finish, instead of trying to create it, in case he escapes the back and really tried to pass hard with a lot of time left on the clock. So, at first I was trying to finish him quick, but then I thought I'll just be more relaxed and see if he opens something up.

FCF: After beating one of the favorites of the division in your second match, Soca, did you know then that you would win?
BP: When I went to fight in the mundial, that's who I really wanted to beat first because I knew he was a big name. After I got past Fredson Alves, then I really started thinking, "Wow, I might win the whole thing today!"

FCF: How many fights did you have this year?
BP: I had four fights.

FCF: Did the way that the Brazilians treat you change after you won the black belt division?
BP: I really don't know because I went home right after that. I have no idea. We'll see next time I go back.

FCF: How much did you feel that the addition of wrestling to your game helped you win this year?
BP: It helped me a lot when I was doing the sweeps. When I stand up with the guy and put him down, when I reverse him, it helped me with Soca and it helped me in the finals, when I sit up and put him on his back. It helped me a lot with those sweeps. It was a big help.

FCF: Did you have something to prove for the people back home and show people what you could do?
BP: When I'm out there I really don't think about it as much. But after I win, "right on!" I come from Hilo, a small town that not too much people know about. But there's a lot of talent out there that I see, in Hilo itself. There are guys that could be really, really good if they had the chance to compete with all these people all the time. I am happy, knowing that I'm from Hilo, a small place. There's not too many people in Hilo that know what I'm doing, you know what I mean. There's a lot of people in Brazil that know what I'm doing though. It's kind of weird in that sense.

FCF: Nova Uniao [BJ's team,which is a collection of a few BJJ schools] seemed to have the loudest cheering section during the tournament, even including drums in their chants and songs. How much does these cheers help you while you are on the mat in a match?
BP: It helps a lot. I enjoy that. It motivates…it's a big difference, a big difference.

FCF: Tell me about the selection process that made you a Team A member and what that means?
BP: First I had to fight to prove…because Andre Pederneiras wanted me to fight black belt, but I had to prove it to the other teachers at Nova Uniao. First I had to fight for my black belt. I was a brown belt and fought another black belt from our school. I fought another black belt from our school. I beat him by an advantage and then I got the black belt. I had to fight one more guy and I beat him by advantage also and the other two guys that were in the division, both just said, "yup, let me go" to the [team] A.

FCF: You have always entered a weight class above your natural weight. Now that you finally filled out to the weight class that you normally compete in, your team puts you in a lower weight class. How did it feel to finally fight at 147 lbs? Was it difficult to cut the weight?
BP: Yeah, it was difficult to cut the weight because of the new weigh in system that they have where you weigh in right there at that time. It was pretty difficult to cut the weight. That's why I started early so it wasn't too bad.

FCF: Are you planning to stay at 147 lbs or go back up to your natural weight?
BP: I'm already at 165, I think or 160 [both laugh].

FCF: I understand that you have just signed with Grapplers Quest. Do you want to share any details? I have been hinting to Brian Cimins [director of Grapplers Quest] to set a match up with you and Matt Serra from Renzo Gracie's [another newly awarded American Black Belt].
BP: Yeah, I didn't sign anything with Grapplers Quest yet. I talked to them a lot of times. Brian [Cimins] is a nice guy, but we got nothing signed yet. Matt Serra is a very good fighter, a little big, but maybe one day we probably will end up competing with each other, maybe soon. I don't know.

FCF: Since the trend of BJJ black belt tournament winners, such as Alexander "Soca" Carneiro [1998 Champion and second place finisher in 1999 and 2000], whom you just beat, also compete in Abu Dhabi, do you have similar plans?
BP: That's my dream. That's where I want to go. That's for sure. That's what I want to do next. Right now, I'm going to do a lot of training without the gi, try to get ready and if they accept me, I'm going.

FCF: Do you have any plans to enter any of the qualifying tournaments?
BP: No, because I think it's right now actually. I think it's this week or something. I just got back and I haven't been training. I don't think I'll be able to make the qualifying [tournament]. There may be another qualifying coming up soon and some kind of tournament in December. There's something crazy so we got to see. Check it out.

FCF: How long do you think you need to get ready for a Abu Dhabi type submission wrestling tournament?
BP: One month, maybe less, around there.

FCF: Have you been keeping yourself in shape or taking a rest after the mundial?
BP: I'm not in shape, eating ice cream everyday, relaxing, and going out. I have been just relaxing pretty much, train a little, but just for fun, not serious training.

FCF: Now that you are the Black Belt World Champion, what's next for BJ Penn?
BP: In the next few months I am just going to go to school and do some wrestling for the team at a community college [West Valley College] right up here from my house.

FCF: Do you plan on continuing to compete in BJJ competitively?
BP: That's a big question that we will have to see. I want to do more submission wrestling now, stuff without the gi. But of course I will do a few Jiu-Jitsu matches, but we'll have to see.

FCF: Do you feel like you have achieved this title and want to move onto something else for a new challenge?
BP: Yeah, kind of like that, but I also feel like maybe I do have to go back next year and win it again. I feel like I could move on, but I feel like a may have to win that thing one more time.

FCF: To prove it wasn't a fluke?
BP: Yeah, something like that. I want to see the competition next year. Maybe the defending champ, Royler [Gracie] might fight. You never know, so maybe I might have to go back. We'll see.

FCF: I hear that you are offering private lessons now?
BP: Yeah, but we'll see how that goes. Never got one yet [laughs].

FCF: You just got the word out. You have to give it some time [laughs].
BP: Yeah, yeah. We'll see how that goes.

FCF: Is there anything else you would like to add?
BP: I would just like to say, what's up to everybody from Hilo. That's about it.