By now, everyone knows of the "Gracie Train" which accompanied Royce Gracie on his reign in the UFC's. One of these select members and fellow Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu instructor is the transplanted Brazilian, Fabio Santos, who now resides in San Diego. He has a very successful school with students who have fared well in Jiu-Jitsu and submission wrestling tournaments California. One of his standout students that has been making a stir in the west coast grappling circuit is Dean Lister. Lister, who has had an interesting background growing up in both North and South America, has had a taste of many different cultures and experiences. He jumped in to instant notoriety by giving Vernon White of the Lion's Den all he could handle in a grappling event. Dean is now turning his attention to the NHB arena and hopes to spice up the already hot middleweight division. I talked with Dean by phone on Saturday, July 15, 2000 to learn more about this young talent.

FCF: You are known as one of the top up and coming grapplers on the west coast. Can you tell us your grappling background?
Dean Lister: My grappling background started in high school with wrestling, where I took a divisional championship. I did not continue in college wrestling, but I continued in the AAU, the Amateur Athletic Union, where I took two national titles in Sambo. I mostly focused on submission wrestling and Sambo. I didn't do too much freestyle, emphasized myself in Sambo, and then I moved myself into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at the age of nineteen and a half. It was there where I stuck with it. I've won a lot of tournaments in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, as well as just submission tournaments, and now I'm starting to get into NHB now. I just recently won the Jean Jacque Machado tournament. I took the open division at purple belt and I also took my weight division at the light-heavy. That was last week.

FCF: Who did you train wrestling with or did you just enter the AAU tournaments?
DL: I trained under Jerry Matsumoto of Chula Vista, California and I trained with him for about two years in Sambo.

FCF: So the AAU is basically a Sambo and Wrestling organization?
DL: It was both. In the United States, the wrestling as far as freestyle, Greco-Roman, and Sambo are the three styles of the off-season wrestling. It's off-season of the college and high school competition times. You can compete in one, two, or all three of those styles. Of course, they are all different rules so I focused on Sambo at that time. I won the grand AAU nationals in Bakersfield. That was in 1997, I believe.

FCF: I understand that you grew up in South America. Can you tell me about growing up in South America and your move to America?
DL: Actually, I come from a military family so I lived a lot of my life down there. However, I was born up here. I lived two years in Venezuela, two years in Panama, and I even lived in Panama for the invasion. The US invasion where we [the US] invaded Panama. That lasted about a week. I was pinned down at my house for three to four days, couldn't go outside. There's no running water. It was pretty scary. I grew up in some real violent areas of South America, where I've always known that I needed to learn how to fight or take care of myself. In all honesty, I'm not a violent guy at all, but I do see some realistic skills that need to be learned by any man nowadays, especially in certain areas. Of course, me being the only American kid around down there, I learned Spanish very fast. I learned Portuguese too, but I was always often the victim of bullies so I had to learn how to fight real fast. After a while, I wasn't a victim of bullies anymore. I got in to a lot of fights in South America and was glad I got back in to the United States, but I am also glad I got to have the experience of living in other countries.

FCF: Did you learn any martial arts in South America?
DL: Absolutely. Where I lived in Venezuela, the first time I was exposed to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and I remember hearing about them and they were somewhat known down there. It is interesting how it stuck out in my mind, however, I never had practiced it until I got to California. In all honesty, Judo and Tae Kwon Do, the more traditional mainland Asian martial arts are prevalent in the North and South American countries, even Argentina, all the other countries… even Brazil actually, they definitely do have Karate and so forth. So, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has just now really been spreading around, but back then, it really wasn't a main stay sport as it is now.

FCF: Did you look to martial arts as a way to protect yourself or were you just interested in learning something new?
DL: For me, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or martial arts, especially grappling, since I'm a specialist in grappling. I do cross train with striking, specifically boxing and kickboxing. However, I do feel that the whole sport combined in NHB or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or whatever you are going to do, it's going to be an art. It's going to be a sport. It's going to be exercise. It's going to be self-defense. So, it's four things to me, and four very important things. You can create your own things and adjust the system to your own personal specifications, that being the art side of it. Of course, the sport side of it satisfies a lot of my competitive qualities that I have. As far as self-defense, it is very important. I feel, especially being a young guy growing up where I had to live, it is very important to learn how to take care of yourself. And exercise, it is my opinion that wrestlers, submission fighters, any NHB guy…we're probably in the toughest sport there is and it reflects in your personal qualities as far as what you can achieve in athletics. If you can master this, you can master just about anything out there.

FCF: What caused you to start training under Fabio Santos?
DL: Actually, at first when I met him, he was associated with the Torrance Academy, the Gracie Academy and at that time, that was when Royce Gracie was entering the UFC and he was whipping everyone in the UFC. I thought that was kind of impressive that you had this one-eighty pound guy taking on [everyone], even though he had a gi on. I thought that was interesting. I was always been told that wearing a gi in a fight was really asking for it, and nowadays I kind of agree about that because everyone is learning how to deal with the gi. If you are wearing a gi against an opponent and he is not, I think you are at a disadvantage, in my opinion. I did think that it was interesting that this guy was going in there and he was handling his opponents not even with much brutality. He was just beating them. So based upon that, as well as my locality of being in San Diego, or in the area of San Diego, I went up and took a free lesson. I was actually known as the "Sambo Kid" at the school for a while because they knew I was a Sambo champion. I did OK for the beginning, however the rules were different, but I found it very interesting. I just found a home here and I've been the assistant instructor, me and my friend Higgs, Jeff Higgs, have been the two instructors along with Fabio Santos so I just found a home here and attached myself and I know I'm in the right place.

FCF: What percentage do you train with and without the gi?
DL: Recently, I did have a gi tournament so recently I have been training a lot with the gi, but now, the past week, and for the next two months, I'm training 100% no gi and that's how I prefer. When I was in Brazil, last January, I trained extensively with Murilo Bustamante, Mario Sperry, Ricardo Liborio, and Ricardo Arona. These are some real good fighters down there with and without gi, but I trained a lot with them without gi and we focused on that a lot. That was a really great experience and I feel that my Jiu-Jitsu went up [increased in technique] a lot, specifically because it was very realistic training, and it was a lot of the up and coming new stuff. A lot of good style comparisons because I had some good wrestling type background to show them, where I don't think they had much of a look at that down there at the time. I know they've seen it before and of course myself, I had not trained with many top of the line black belts from Brazil. That was a very good experience so from that point on, I have been training probably 60% no gi and 40% gi. However, it is going to change to 100% no gi now.

FCF: How did you hook up training with the Carlson Gracie team when your instructor Fabio Santos is affiliated with Rickson and Royler Gracie?
DL: Well, lets see… I have a real good friend, his name is Pedro Duarte. He's down in Brazil. He's a black belt under Murilo Bustamante and he's a good friend of mine [that] came to San Diego, stayed here for about a year. I befriended him so when I went down to Brazil, I stayed at his house for a whole month. Actually, I kind of felt I over stayed my welcome because it was a whole month, but it was a real good experience. I was introduced to Murilo Bustamante and Mario Sperry, as well as one of the brown belts at my school Alex, a good friend of mine. He was a student of Mario Sperry when he was in Porto Alegre, down in Brazil, so of course, I already had a reference to Mario Sperry as well. I had the good friend I was staying with was already a black belt instructor for Murilo Bustamante and I had a good friend of mine up in San Diego that was a student of Mario Sperry so I pretty much fit in pretty well, pretty easy. We clicked pretty well and I think we all have benefited from it, really good workouts down there, excellent, excellent team down there.

FCF: How does Fabio feel about you training with another team?
DL: As far as if they are in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, there are certain instructors he likes and certain instructors he probably would not want me training with, just because he had certain ways of doing things that he doesn't want me throwing out there for everyone to see. There are certain people he respects. I know he respects the Carlson [Gracie] team and so he had no problem with me training out there. As a matter of fact, he recommended them to me as being one of the best schools down there, so he didn't have a problem with that. As far as just studying around with any other school, I think he wants to keep it pretty much pure so I don't think that he is too hot on me training anywhere else and any other school up here, but down there, it was no big deal. It was good. He encouraged it.

FCF: You have gained popularity by having a submission grappling match with Vernon "Tiger" White of the famed Lion's Den. Tell us about that match?
DL: Vernon "Tiger" White was a very good opponent, very strong and resilient, very tough guy. I actually got a good move on him in the beginning. I have to give it to him. I think that most people would…he hit real hard on the ground and he just kept fighting like a real man. He hit his head real hard on the ground when I threw him. I really feel honored by the quality of my opponent so the tougher my opponents are, the better I feel. I don't like to get easy victories. I don't like fighting easy guys so all I can say is that he is a good opponent and as a matter of fact, he is a nice guy, a respectful guy. I think he had some quality to him. My school is known as pretty much a gi school, but I do train without the gi. I think a lot of people were thinking that Shamrock's school was just going to annihilate our school. I hope I opened some minds up as far as the individual is different from every school, but overall it was a good match. I got to his back one time. I was mounted [on him] a lot of the match. He swept me off one time and we did a lot of stand-up stuff. We were on our feet for a long time, but that's about all I can say about the match. There was some good highlights, but it was pretty much stopped at a few positions.

FCF: You are slated to fight in the September 16, King of the Cage. Will this be your first NHB match?
DL: This is my first formal NHB match. That's not saying much, I bet everyone does this, but we have had challengers come in to my school. I fought plenty of guys and I have gotten in to plenty of fights outside of school. Even though I avoid them, I have gotten in fights so I feel that I am training really realistically and I feel that I am taking the best from everyone at my school since we have a good variety of guys. A lot of good friends contribute to my training. I have Jocko, real tough guy. He's a Navy SEAL and he's running me, training me real hard right now. I have Mick Leone. He's a good ex-boxer I train with. He's also a chiropractor. He's helping me out physically with my body and training for the fight. My good friend Higgs, my good friend James, we're all training real hard for this fight. It's not just key techniques. I feel real confident about the things we are going over. I feel really good about me entering NHB.

FCF: Do you know who your opponent will be?
DL: I don't have a name, but I know he is a grappler. I think he is actually a Jiu-Jitsu guy. I heard that he's under Joe Moreira or I think he's under Joe Moreira. I actually don't have the information currently as far as the name. I've been told he's a grappler, which I have no problem with. I like fighting other grapplers.

FCF: Are you confident that you can keep this a ground game or are you going to test your stand up in this fight?
DL: .I like to definitely use what I have best to offer to win a fight, however I do like to scout out my opponent and use what he doesn't use very well, take the tactical weaknesses. If this guy's a grappler, I do feel pretty confident with my stand up skills. I may test a little my stand up skills, however my bread and butter is the ground so I have no problem going to the ground and probably will end up there no matter what.

FCF: Did training with all these successful NHB/BJJ guys influence your decision to enter the world of NHB?
DL: Initially no, but in the long run, I'd say it has just because when you get to train with the world's best and you get to see that my friends and I are at the world competitive level. That's not saying, "I'm the best and I'm going to win all the time." I know I have a good attitude and I know we have good training and I know we have good chances. I know the level of our fighting is up there because I have trained with the best in the world so I know how that feels. It was a real good confidence booster just to see and not wonder about the mystique of people from this country or that country, or this style over that style, but to really train with them. It really opened my mind up. It made me more confident and more optimistic of what I can do in the sport. In the long run, yes it did open my mind up to NHB.

FCF: Did you find that the Jiu-Jitsu fighters train differently than guys that are 100% concentrated on sport BJJ?
DL: As far as the intensity is concerned, no. I feel that the training is as hard [for sport BJJ]. If you want to be a champion, you have to train hard no matter what. However of course, the objective is different. In Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, you don't have to worry about getting hit or kicked or elbowed or anything like that so you can get into some bad habits, which I've seen some guys do, just leaving their face wide open or not even worrying about punches or stalling with the gi on, which I really hate personally. I fight to submit. As a matter of fact, that's one of my biggest complaints about sport tournaments. It's turning into a sport where guys are winning by an advantage [score that is less than a point which is used to decide fights when there is a tie in points] or one point or two points and they'll stall for the rest of the fight, just to win by that. I'm not satisfied for that. I fight to submit and that's what I'm good at. I'm not a type of guy to hold a guy down and win by one advantage or one point and eek out a victory out of my opponent. Like I said, I don't like easy victories and I like to fight quality opponents and I like to push them hard and I hope that they push me hard too so I know I have a real victory and/or real good opponent. I feel proud about that. I'd say that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, the sport, in some tournaments has been very good for me because I see guys fight me real hard and other guys don't. They just try to stall and hang out. They are not really trying to fight. In NHB, that's going to be harder to do. People can't stall as easy. It can happen, but if someone is worried about getting knocked out, they're not just going to sit around and put their head in your chest and hold on to you as much as they do in a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu tournament or even in wrestling. I've seen guys stall. When you throw in the hitting game, I think it throws a lot more factors in. I know it does.

FCF: With the recent "reorganization" of the Carlson Gracie team, did you notice any sign of that might have lead to the break-up?
DL: No, no. I really did not see anything. As a matter of fact, I know Mario and Murilo are real good friends and I did see Ricardo Liborio and Ricardo Arona, who are real top fighters training at their school too as well as many of their black belts, which I got to train with as well as some brown belts which were some upcoming guys. Ricardo Arona, I called it. He was entering Abu Dhabi and I knew he was going to win. He just took down all the wrestlers, threw them down like nothing, and he won. He, as a matter of fact, is accomplished in his striking ability so he is going to be a real good guy to watch for. My point is I just seen all these high level guys training at their school. I never thought anything was coming like that, but like I say, they already have a good routine together and they're a bunch of good guys. They train real hard and they have a good attitude so I hope they keep it up. When I go down to Brazil again, I hope to train with them again. They were very hospitable to me and I learned a lot down there.

FCF: Are you planning on being more active in NHB events this year?
DL: I want to do this first match and yes, I do want to be more active in NHB, however I am graduating from college this year. I want to make sure that I keep my mind open to things. I don't want to burn any bridges and I don't want to throw all my eggs in one basket and be close minded. My dream, of course, is to be a fighter. I want to come across strong opponents and overcome them if possible. I feel that NHB is a good way at doing that so my mind is open to this even more than it was in the past, but I am definitely looking at doing other things in my life right now. Yeah, I'll be a fighter, but I'll also have other issues to deal with and we'll see how I approach all those things together. We'll see how that happens. Take this first fight and see what happens after that. I know that King of the Cage is associated with Pride Japan and that's actually opening a lot of curiosity to me. We'll see what happens when I get there.

FCF: Do you have anything else lined up after the King of the Cage?
DL: Nothing is lined up, however there are some submission tournaments coming up.
We're [Team Fabio Santos] after the big ones, the Jean Jacque Machado no gi submission tournament. I still will compete in submission tournaments, however I will probably focus more on no-gi and NHB. There's going to be a King of the Cage every three months and I'll continue fighting in that event and I'll see what goes on from there with the affiliation of Pride and King of the Cage because I feel those are two good names to stick with. I'm not trying to run out and trying to fight in any $50 for a victory type fight out here and I'm not going down to Mexico and not going down to these smaller budget fights. I'm trying to stick with the bigger name fights where I know its going to have more of a future for me.

FCF: Thank you and good luck in your upcoming fight.
DL: Absolutely.