John Lewis burst on the NHB scene by quickly taking out Thomas Puckett at United Fighting Championships in Honolulu, Hawaii [September 8, 1995] with an armbar. John helped to rekindle the legendary status of Judo Gene LeBell, when LeBell named John his first black belt. John later attained a black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu from Andre Pedeneiras, to add to his collection. He also made history by fighting Carlson Gracie Jr. in the Battlecade: Extreme Fighting, which ended in a draw. This was the first time, outside Brazil, that two fighters with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu backgrounds fought in an NHB match. He then went on to take out every opponent that was in front of him, until he ran into 1984 Olympic Freestyle Wrestling Gold Medallist and 1988 Silver Medallist, Kenny Monday. Then Rumina Sato, who is one of the rising stars coming out of the Shooto organization, got revenge from a pummeling that Lewis gave him earlier [at Vale Tudo Japan '96]. Since then, Lewis has entered both Abu Dhabi World Submission Wrestling Championships, placing 4th in 1998, but has been absent on the NHB circuit. All of a sudden, he is on the UFC XXII card fighting Lowell Anderson, another BJJ black belt. I caught up with John Lewis at the Lewis/Pedeneiras Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Academy in Honolulu, Hawaii on September 5, 1999.

FCF: Can you please state your martial arts background and instructors?
John Lewis: I started off in a system called Shokondo, from a teacher named Dan Koji, who was the founder of the system. It's basically a Japanese kickboxing system, very similar to Muay Thai. I was his first black belt. It was private instruction, a backyard kind of thing. He was a very good Japanese instructor. I also have a black belt in Judo and Submission Wrestling under Gene LeBell. I have a Japanese Jiu-Jitsu ranking as well. And I have a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu ranking under Andre Pedeneiras. This year, I am now a second degree black belt. And that's pretty much it.

FCF: You have moved the location of your Las Vegas school. Was it for any particular reason for this?
JL: Yeah, I did. I moved the Las Vegas school to a larger location because I wanted to make room for the octagon [which he recently purchased] and I put a full weight room n there with all Hammer Strength equipment. So it was a very, very nice upgrade.

FCF: The cage you got from Fabiano Iha?
JL: Yes, it is.

FCF: I asked Charuto (another black belt under Andre Pederneiras) previously why you opened a BJJ school in Hawaii. Tell us in your own words why you did?
JL: It's because this was my original home. I was born here. I lived here for 17 years before I moved away. I always wanted to come back here and I always wanted to end up putting my roots back here. I know that I had a lot of friends and family here and I thought it would be nice to come back here and be able to visit a lot. So I came and opened a school here and it's doing very well.

FCF: After destroying Rumina Sato in your first fight, you seemed to look like a different person when you fought him the second time. What happen?
JL: For one, I weighed 152lbs., I was very sick before that fight. I was hospitalized 10 days before that fight. I tried to call and get out of the fight, but they offered me quite a lot of money win, lose, or draw. At the time, I learned a big lesson. Don't fight for the money, fight for the fight. I fought for the money that time. I was thinking I could get through the fight, survive through it. And I made a mistake because Rumina was there to fight that day. And he was awesome, so I made a mistake that day. You're right, I wasn't myself.

FCF: You and Rumina look like friends now. Do you have any plans to fight Rumina for best two out of three?
JL: I have no specific plans. Me and Rumina are more…we just respect each other a lot. I respect him a lot as a fighter. A lot of guys who have hard fights…you know how it is, when you're in school, you fight somebody in high school, next thing you know you're their best friend. You have a lot of respect for the guy. So, I have a lot of respect for him as a fighter. I definitely would like to fight again. I don't know if I would necessarily fight him again or fight [Kaoru] Uno, because it's not really a grudge match against Rumina that I want. But by fighting against Uno again [Kaoru Uno beat John in the 1999 Abu Dhabi World Submission Wrestling Championships], I might be able to get the best of both worlds, being that Uno just beat Rumina. It's more to get myself back to my normal status in the game and not so much personally against Rumina.

FCF: There is a rumor stating that you were "black listed" from the UFC because you were on bad terms with matchmaker John Perretti, who was also the matchmaker for Extreme Fighting, which you fought in. Can you give us details on what happened and if the relationship has been mended?
JL: All I want to say about that is when I was in Extreme Fighting, John Perretti was the matchmaker as well and we were fine at that time. We had a little falling out during one of the shows. A show called The Contenders. I offended him in front of some people and I kind of spoke before I thought. So, basically, we had a little tiff there and we kind of now worked it out and things are okay. That's why I'm in the show.

FCF: Was that what caused your absence from NHB or was it something else?
JL: No, initially I just decided that I wanted to go back to work and train again. I had my school going here. I knew I still wanted to fight. If a certain great show, or a great opportunity came up, I would have taken it. A lot of small things were coming up that weren't quite interesting enough to me. I wasn't really desperate to fight so I decided to just work on my game, all around. I have been doing a lot of other things to enhance my NHB game. So, pretty much it's been a time to better myself

FCF: Can you give us some details on what you were working on?
JL: I have been boxing with my coach who's name is Skipper Kelp. He's an incredible pro boxer. He's got a great pro record, so he's been helping me a lot. So I have been focusing a lot on my boxing, just for my hands and stuff. And I have been working on my grappling skills, keeping myself sharp and always keeping myself current with the new stuff.

FCF: There was a rumored controversy on the Internet that Robert Ferguson, self-proclaimed "elite grappler" and "Prince of Leg Locks", was offered a chance to fight you at UFC XXII. Cal Cooper of the ADCC web page reported that Ferguson backed down saying that the two of you were close friends. Then Ferguson responded with a letter stating that he was willing to fight you, with the hopes of later fighting Pat Miletich (current UFC lightweight champ) for the title, and that Perretti's camp is telling lies, and goes on about the corruption of the NHB industry. What the hell happened?
JL: I don't know. All I know is that it is pretty funny because Robert Ferguson seemed to be a nice enough guy, but I only talked to him on the phone twice. One time was because my students was going to fight in his tournament and the second time was to see if they received their medals or why they didn't receive their medals. That's about as good as I know him. I have never met him personally. I have never saw him personally. I saw him through a magazine. So, when I was offered the fight by John Perretti, I was more than happy for the fight, nothing against Robert. It's just a fight. So I said sure. A few days later, Robert called me and asked me if I had heard about the fight. And I said, yes, I have heard about it. And I recommended that he do it because I thought it would be a good opportunity for me to get out and do it. And he said he had hoped to affiliate with my school somehow in the future and would that affect it in any way. I said that's another story. But I said it's nothing personal, it's just a fight. So, I recommend that if this is your shot to fight in the UFC that you should take it. And, at that point he just left it at that and said okay, thanks and goodbye. And then, everything else you know is what I know. I just read it on the Internet.

FCF: Did he leave the phone call saying that he was going to fight you and did he say "see you in the octagon?"
JL: Not at all. I read that. It was pretty funny. It would make for a good movie though. It wasn't quite like that.

FCF: In the next UFC, [XXII, on September 24] you will be fighting Lowell Anderson, a BJJ black belt, like yourself. Two BJJ guys fighting each other in an NHB match is not normally seen. You were one of the first to fight another Jiu-Jitsu guy when you fought Carlson Gracie Jr. in Battlecade: Extreme Fighting. How did this match with Lowell come about?
JL: I was asked by John Perretti a while ago to fight Robert Ferguson in the show. So, I was already planning on being in the show. John Perretti told me that no matter what happened with Robert Ferguson that he wanted me to fight in the show. So I have been here waiting for the opponent. So he has been asking opponents to fight me and a few have turned him down. And he, without me even knowing who Lowell Anderson is, because I didn't know who he was, approached Lowell and Lowell must have said yes. So I don't look at it like I'm fighting Jiu-Jitsu guys, I looked at it like I was there, Lowell was offered to fight a Jiu-Jitsu guy and he accepted it. And I don't back down from anybody.

FCF: And wasn't that the same situation with the Carlson Gracie Jr. fight?
JL: Yes it is. I was already in the show. And when they were offered the fight, if they were really concerned about fighting Jiu-Jitsu guy against a Jiu-Jitsu guy, they should have said no. But, I guess they didn't think that much of the situation.

FCF: A lot of people thought that you chose to fight them. I guess because they have the more well known name in the BJJ community?
JL: Right. They automatically assume that they're the Gracie ones so I must be the one trying to get the fight, but actually it was the other way around, both times.

FCF: Most people know that Lowell used to train with Rorion and Royce Gracie at their Torrance Academy for a long time and then left. What else do you know about Lowell?
JL: I know that he fought all of his fights at the Gracie Academy, for the Gracie camp. And that's good for him, more power to him. But I'm sure none of those guys were at the level that I'm at. I also know that he's a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu. I only knew of the last belt that he got from one of those guys was a brown belt. I'm sure he got a black belt from somebody, but I don't know who that was. And I'm pretty much not too worried about it. He won't be any better than I am on the ground and I know that he can't do what I can standing up.

FCF: This match could be billed as the "Battle of the American BJJ Black Belts." Since the Carlson Jr. fight, you have not fought another BJJ guy. Are you preparing any differently knowing that your opponent is also a BJJ black belt?
JL: No, just what I have been doing for the last few years. Everything that I have been doing for the last two years almost fits this fight perfectly. It's not like I planned for this specific fight, but it just happens to play right into the game. So, I'm just going continue to do what I'm doing all this time. And whatever opponent that was going to be in the ring, I was going to have the same strategy for.

FCF: So once you know who your opponent is, you don't train specifically for him?
JL: I do, I do, if it's a specific system or specific style. Like if it was definitely a kickboxer and that's what he did, of course I would say, well I would fight on the ground. But in these situations, in these days, the game's becoming a lot more open. The best guys are not the guys who do just one system. The guys that are more scary are the guys who are cross-trainers. The guy who can punch, kick, grapple, submit, foot lock, armlock, that's the guys who make me nervous. So, when I hear that I'm going to fight a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter in a show, like Lowell Anderson, it doesn't make me nervous because I do this everyday. How is he going to surprise me? It's what I'm used to seeing. So it's actually a little more common for me than if I was going to fight a Pancration fighter, for instance, who has a great record and who is a little more well rounded.

FCF: There has been a lot of controversy over the years concerning American BJJ black belts, saying that they are not legitimate black belts. Basically, that they are not as technical as the Brazilian black belts and people discredit them. What are your thoughts on this subject?
JL: First of all, you're only as good as your teacher is. Your teacher makes you. I think that if you get a legitimate black belt from a legitimate black belt from Brazil or from anywhere else, then you are a black belt, obviously. Now whether or not you're as good as all the best black belts in Brazil that's another situation. I believe that definitely comes down to the teacher and what he has been teaching you over that time. If you have a very good teacher, open and willing to make you very good and not holding anything back, and not trying to pace out the training to make money from you, you can get very good, very quickly. Or, if you have someone who is stuck in the old styles of Jiu-Jitsu and that's the way they teach you, and that's what they want to teach you, your going to be very good at that. And a lot of the guys who are in Brazil are constantly competing and constantly current, so they're always up on the new techniques and they're always making new techniques to beat other techniques. So they are definitely up there on the cutting edge. But if you're in touch with that and if you have people coming back and forth from there to keep you current that you can still stay up there with them.

FCF: Are you looking to go for the UFC lightweight title and is there anyone specifically you want to fight in the near future if all goes well with the UFC fight?
JL: I wouldn't mind fighting [Kaoru] Uno, who I really respect, as much as I respect Rumina. Besides that, no, I just take one step and one fight at a time. There's nobody that I'm out to get. I will just go as far as the money takes me and so on. As far as the UFC title, not necessarily. If the money's there for it. I'm not sure if the money's there for me yet, but we'll see if the money gets better. But like I say, it's nothing that I don't want it. It just, we'll see if it's feasible.

FCF: Thanks John and good luck in the UFC.
JL: Thanks for the time. I appreciate you interviewing me and I hope that I can do good for everybody.