He solidified his claim to the world when he won the Vale Tudo Japan Open in 1994 and again in 1995. He then beat the best Japan had to offer…twice. Japan has put forth another champion named Masukatsu Funaki, to the challenge, arguably the best NHB fighter today, Rickson Gracie. A new event featuring this colossal match is called Coliseum 2000 and is scheduled for May 26th in Japan. Rickson has been the champion of the Gracie family for over two decades. When he fights, he is said to display the "finest expression of Jiu-Jitsu." He has over 400 victories in various competitions, including his specialty NHB. Rickson has always been a role model to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioners and NHB fans, not only because of his impeccable record and willingness to fight anyone at any time, but also because he is a modern day samurai who has accepted the code of the Bushido. The Bushido code is a set of ethical and moral guidelines that Japanese warriors used to lead honorable lives. He fights for honor and is the consummate professional in and out of the ring. I caught up with Rickson on March 10th, 2000. We talked about his fights with Takada, his rapidly growing association, his up and coming fight with Funaki, and his thoughts on both his brothers', Royler and Royce, recent fights.

FCF: After winning the Vale Tudo Japan Open in '94 & '95, you haven't had a fight until Pride-1, where you faced Nobuhiko Takada. Takada was obviously chosen because he was well known to Japanese fans from Professional wrestling. What were your thoughts going into that first fight? Did you ever see any of his matches?
Rickson Gracie: At the time, I accepted the fight because the promoters wanted to make the next step in no holds barred events. And to do that, they need a well-known fighter. I accepted without knowing too much about Mr. Takada's skills. Even though he was well known and respected in the martial arts community, the fact is that he doesn't have much experience in no holds barred. That doesn't give me too much sense of what he really can do. So, at this point, it's a real mystery of his real effectiveness because he's also an entertainer. So, I pretty much got into the fight without knowing his realistic abilities to perform.

FCF: After the first relatively easy win over Takada, a rematch was set for Pride-2. This time Takada traveled to the US in order to train with some of the best fighters in the business like Marco Ruas and Mark Kerr. Did you hear about this and if you did was this a concern?
RG: I felt, in the first fight, he was totally lost. He went in the right direction. He went to train in specifically the points that he felt caused him to make the mistakes in the prior event. And of course, for me, not as a concern, but as a point of always being serious about my opponents, I expected the worse possible from Takada. And again, he improved, but still, with the lack of experience and time in these kinds of events, it made him much better, but not good enough to give me a hard time.

FCF: Tell us about that fight? He lasted a little longer, but...
RG: He was concerned about keeping the fight in the standing position. Based on my feelings, I did not try to press the fight because I did not know how long the fight would take, so I was pretty much going with the flow and waiting for something to happen. Eventually, we went to the ground. He was not comfortable in my guard. He tried a foot lock, but I defended and took advantage of his movement and momentum. I just went for a control position. From there, I felt that he was making the same mistakes, but I was skeptical about trying something because I felt like it was too easy. He's giving me the arm from the beginning but I'm a little concerned about just going for it. I thought he was setting me up. And towards the end of the round, I went [for it] because there's not too much to lose because the bell was going to ring in a few seconds. He was just unaware of what will happen, so he gave me the arm again, so I just took it.

FCF: After that fight, you took a break from fighting, concentrating on your association. Tell us about your association and what you hope to achieve through it?
RG: The association is a very important part of my life right now because I believe it is very important for Jiu-Jitsu. To be strong in the foundations of what Jiu-Jitsu is all about, not only as an effective martial art, but also philosophically and technically. I try to create guidelines to inform people of the concepts of Jiu-Jitsu. It's not only on the mats, teaching and training hard. It's also giving those guidelines to increase the philosophical element of Jiu-Jitsu and the concept of incorporating the beneficial aspects of Jiu-Jitsu for the community. I believe a well-done work in Jiu-Jitsu is positive for any family member. Different than the objective work as a professional fighter or to be a tough guy, kicking somebody's butt on the street or in a ring. I think that is a vision that a lot of people have of Jiu-Jitsu after watching the UFC. And I think that is the way I envisioned Jiu-Jitsu when I started training in it. I never started training in it when I was a kid to beat people up or to compete. It's only to better relate myself to life, to increase my self-confidence, learn to have better self esteem, learn how to relate with other training partners. This is a healthy environment that every Jiu-Jitsu academy will always have, once the principles are correct, in order to make a healthy idea of the sport. Sometimes you see this in different schools, like Karate and Aikido schools, because they have the Zen aspect of it and the philosophical aspect of it and the disciplinary aspect of it. And sometimes because people are just interested in Jiu-Jitsu for the effectiveness of it, forget about those things and just train hard. This is not very interesting for parents to bring their kids into. It is to increase the Zen, the disciplinary, and the philosophical aspects of martial arts to introduce to the practitioner, a healthy and positive way to grow as a person.

FCF: How extensive has your association grown?
RG: It's pretty big right now, I maybe have 3,000 members and representatives all over the world. But my focus is not trying to get more students or more representatives, my focus is to maintain quality and be very concerned about the people who will represent me all over the world and to have a personal relationship with all of them and be very concerned with the technical and philosophical aspects. For me, I do not have a vision to have 100,000 members in 10 years. I could have and I would be happy to have this many, but I will also be happy if I have the same amount of members in ten years. I just want to create a statement in order to feel good about giving back to society, all the benefits that I took for myself from Jiu-Jitsu.

FCF: Many people have criticized your recent fights because they have been against relatively unknown or less skilled opponents, especially Takada. What do you have to say to these people?
RG: We just talked about it. Nobody in the martial arts community in Japan has a bigger name than Takada. And now that Takada is out of the loop, they put the second biggest name to fight me, Funaki. There are three guys in Japan that has the name to create a real big event, Takada, Maeda, who retired, and Funaki, who is still in his prime and is a very well known fighter. In order to bring vale tudo events to a new level, the promoters, because I don't have anything to prove and I am ready to fight anyone, are the ones who pick fighters, especially in Japan. The promoters see no interest to put me against other fighters. Maybe in the future, if [Kazushi] Sakuraba is still performing well, he will be one, but Sakuraba has a little controversial aspect. Even though he is a skilled fighter, he seems like he doesn't have the warrior spirit and he doesn't have the charisma to attract a lot of Japanese. A lot of Japanese are skeptical of his attitude to the other fighters. From the pro-wrestling background, he talks a lot of shit.

FCF: Speaking of Funaki, you are scheduled to fight Funaki on May 26th. Funaki is one of the founding members of Pancrase, which has produced fighters such as Ken and Frank Shamrock, Bas Rutten, Maurice Smith, Guy Mezger, to name a few. Funaki is very well respected, how did this fight come about?
RG: I have just been invited to participate in this new event, which plans to be bigger in scale than Pride. I see Pride as an event who now tries to be more entertainment, rather than an arena where fighters can prove themselves on a major scale. It's more to attract the public and lower itself in the realistic aspects. This new promoter is trying to make a new arena and to be portrait the more serious aspects of martial arts.

FCF: When asked, you always say that you do not go into a fight looking to use a specific technique or expect certain things from your opponent. But how can you not expect something from Funaki?
RG: I expect the worse and I am ready for it.

FCF: Are you training any differently for this fight with Funaki?
RG: Not really.

FCF: Let's change gears for a bit. Both your brothers, Royce and Royler recently fought. You were in Royler's corner for his fight against Kazushi Sakuraba. Everybody thought that Royler was crazy to fight him, specifically because of the huge weight advantage. What were your thoughts on that fight?
RG: I thought Royler had one chance, but the whole idea of the fight was not to take for granted the capacity and the size difference of Sakuraba over Royler. I knew it would be a hard task for Royler. I knew he has a lot of chances to make a bad fight, like he did. But if things, at one moment went his way, he could take the advantage. So, if this was an average situation, [the odds] would be 8 to 2. So Sakuraba has a better chance, he's bigger, smart, especially because he fought without the fighter's spirit. He fought afraid of committing himself to the fight. He fought only using strategically, very smart elements, like keeping the distance, punching a lot, stay standing up, stay away of the ground fight. He took advantage and he made a better fight that Royler, there's no question about that because he didn't show a brave spirit. He didn't go in there to beat Royler. He went in there to win a game, not a fight. So, I kind of accept Royler's fight. I am really disappointed with the referee's decision over that because it was inappropriate for the referee to stop the fight without Royler's consent, without Royler giving up, and with only one minute left. Never, in no holds barred's history has a fight been stopped without the coach throwing the towel or the doctor intervention in case an injury is exposed, like the guys is already bleeding or the arm is already broke, or [he is] limping, or in a situation where the guy cannot keep going. This was not the case because Royler was in a lock, where Sakuraba could not squeeze and he [Royler] was trapped but not in pain. Even though he is in pain, he is grown up enough to know when he cannot resist. It's not for the referee to stop the fight. It was totally a wrong situation. And I am real disappointed with the situation, Royler is also very disappointed. We all expected, with the weight difference, based on all the punishment that Royler took, that he deserved a draw because he showed his heart, every time Sakuraba asked him to stand up, he got up and got beat up like a man. And every time, Royler called Sakuraba to the ground to keep fighting, Sakuraba stayed up like a chicken. So, that shows no heart for Sakuraba. I'm disappointed with Sakuraba's spirit. And I am also disappointed with Pride's judgement.

FCF: You and Royler are very close. Did he discuss the fight with you before he accepted it?
RG: There's nothing to discuss. We are always ready to fight anyone. There's nothing to be discussed. Of course, it was a hard task. He talked to me about fighting Sakuraba and I said "Okay, let's do it." And that's it. Sakuraba's no big deal.

FCF: Did you get to see Royce's fight at Pride 2000: Grand Prix against Takada?
RG: Yes.

FCF: It wasn't exactly the best performance for either fighter. What did you think of the fight?
RG: I think Takada went there to stall the fight. He did nothing. It's a shame to see a guy get in the ring with the desire to stall the fight. I mean, what's the purpose to go there and fight? I also think that Royce's style gives him the elements to capitalize based upon his opponent's actions. Once the opponent stalls the fight, the opponent doesn't create an opening. If the fight goes on forever, I believe this would be no problem for Royce. Royce would have an easy fight. It was ugly because there was no action, but it was controlled by Royce from the first point to the end. There's nothing to talk about. It was an ugly fight because basically, Takada went in there to not fight at all.

FCF: Even after his victory over Takada, a lot of people still don't think that Royce will have the same success in NHB as he had when he first started out. Do you think he will?
RG: I think so. I think Royce has great potential. What he needs is time to "cook" his opponents. Royce doesn't have the aggressive style to maintain pressure, to impress the judges, or make a quick fight sometimes with a guy who is trying to stall the fight. So, if he has the time he needs or if the guy goes for some action the way his movements can really create opportunities, I don't see a problem for him. He always showed a great style. But, you know, his style doesn't impress the referee or the judges and sometimes the time is too short for him to do his job.

FCF: Royce is scheduled to fight Sakuraba in the next Pride. Royce is a lot closer in weight and height to Sakuraba. Do you think the results will be different against Royce?
RG: It's hard to say because the way Sakuraba minimizes his risk and tries to play for the audience, I don't know if he wants to commit in this fight. It's hard to say. I don't know how long this fight will take. But I believe, Royce has elements to defeat Sakuraba.

FCF: After his fight with Royler, Sakuraba called you out. If Royce loses, will you challenge Sakuraba?
RG: I don't have nothing to prove. I haven't seen anything from Sakuraba that impresses me. I think he should think about living his life and doing his best. For me, it's not about what Sakuraba wants. The fact that he wants to fight me, makes him one of many. Every fighter in the world wants to have a fight with me. That's not a big deal. I'm not impressed. I'm not thinking that he deserves my special attention. I don't appreciate his techniques. I don't see nothing special about his techniques. I don't see nothing special about his attitude. And I don't see nothing special about his warrior spirit. So, if he's famous enough and he has some promoters to back him up, the same way I can fight him, I can fight Mark Kerr, I can fight Igor Vovchanchyn, whoever it is, whoever's out there. I don't care. I can fight them. It's not about me, it's about the promoters. If you want to pay me or if you want to bet some money with me, I will fight him anytime, anywhere. But, you know, I'm a professional. I'm not here to prove nothing to him or to fight for pennies to make him happy or to make the audience happy. I'm here to do what I have to do as a professional, to enhance the level of the events that I participate. So far, the events that I have participated in have been a break through in terms of creating better
opportunities for other fighters. Without me, there was no Pride. After me, there is a lot of fighters that are getting into Pride. And in the future, there is Coliseum 2000 [the event that Rickson is fighting Funaki], I hope this will break a new barrier in terms of positives for me and for other fighters. I'm not interested in walking back down, just to attend whoever wants to see a fight.

FCF: Now let's get specific about your training methods. A lot of people have seen a bootleg video or a clip on the documentary "Choke," of your breathing workout. Is it true that it was derived from yoga? And what exactly does it accomplish?
RG: I believe breathing exercises are very good, not only for a fighter, but for every human being. It increases your potential in every way, emotionally, spiritually, and physically. So, I believe that's important and it does come from yoga, but with a different approach designed for action, for sport. It is a very important aspect of my training.

FCF: Is that just to improve your conditioning? Some people say that it strengthens you internally, strengthening your organs.
RG: It's good for everything.

FCF: One of the things that always blows me away at your seminars, besides "the finest expression of Jiu-Jitsu," of course, was that you would train with each and every one of the seminar attendees. I remember my brother and I would be planning our strategy of telling a bunch of guys to go and spar with you, hoping that they would tire you out, then we would jump on you one after the other. Of course it never worked, even when we did that three times at one seminar. What specifically do you attribute to being able to do that, besides superior technique, of course?
RG: I dedicate my life to this. I feel very comfortable on the mat. I can pretty much understand my opponent's intentions once we grapple. I feel that I can rest in action and I can anticipate my opponent's movements in actions. So I can pretty much turn on some kind of automatic pilot and just let it flow. It depends on how I feel. I can just check my personal gauge, if I'm overheated, if I'm tired, if I can put more RPMs or not. So, it's pretty natural for me to practice for hours and have fun with my friends. Especially in these seminars, a positive, friendly environment, it's pretty much relaxed, so I can train forever and have fun. And eventually take moments, take advantage here and there. I don't feel anything special. The perspective that I have is different than the students. They may be impressed by that, but for me, it's just another day in the office.

FCF: Your brother, Relson, always says "to get good at Jiu-Jitsu, you have to do Jiu-Jitsu." Do you feel that a student should take every opportunity to train in Jiu-Jitsu or utilize some of his training time to lifting weights, swimming, running, stretching and other similar training methods?
RG: I think for Jiu-Jitsu…you must practice. You must have good instruction and good practice and good partner training to grow in it. But besides that, as a human being, if you have good nutrition, if you have good exercise, good elements to grow as a man, if you are stronger, if you are faster, if you are flexible, that is going to enhance your practice. What you can learn and how you can perform are two different things. You can learn a lot but if you are sick, if you have a cold, if you're weak, you're performance is not the same. Basically, you have to learn the best you can and perform the best you can by having the best physical elements that you can to enhance the combinations. There's no reason for a student to do parallel exercises just train.

FCF: What percentage of your training time should be split between learning new techniques, drilling and practicing techniques, and actual sparring?
RG: This is hard to say. It depends on the level that you are. But a beginner, I would say that for each hour of training, a half hour [should be spent] learning and getting the sophisticated details of grip and positioning. And then another twenty five minutes drilling the specific techniques and five minutes to spar.

FCF: What about for the intermediate or advanced?
RG: That's going to be reduced. You don't have to spend so much time in the learning process, so you are going to reduce the learning process and do about 40 or 45 minutes of drilling and then 15 minutes of sparring.

FCF: When you talk about sparring, do you mean drilling arm bars..
RG: Arm bars, or sweeps, or moving to the back, or practicing to escape the foot lock, or to escape from this or that. Just creating the elements of moving from one place to another smoothly. Sparring is like, let's play, let's see who can catch who.

FCF: How hard should you spar and why?
RG: It's just normal sparring in a friendly environment. It's not to kill each other. It's not to hurt each other. But it's to do your best to see if you can set him up.

FCF: What kind of training do you recommend for student who lacks sparring partners? Are there things that can be done all by yourself?
RG: What do you tell people who want to swim when there is no pool? You want to try Jiu-Jitsu, but you don't have any sparring partner. It's hard to do. You may be able to create some similar exercises to immolate the activity, but without the partner, there's no fight. There's no training. There's no concept. How can you dance without music.

FCF: Would you recommend using that time for conditioning and other things?
RG: In the end, there is nothing related to Jiu-Jitsu. You should always have good nutrition. You should always exercise. But when it comes to Jiu-Jitsu, you always have to have something to deal with.

FCF: I heard a rumor that you have an extensive collection of some of your street fights that you videotaped? Is this true?
RG: Yeah, I have some fights.

FCF: I heard that a while back, if someone challenged you, you would tell the guy to wait and get your video camera. Is this also true?
RG: It's not like that. If I have the video camera at the time. It depends on the level of the challenge. It's not about filming, it's about honor. You have to protect your honor, your family, your students, your place. If a guy came in with a bat, I'm not going to say "okay, stop." I mean, I'm a man, with pride and honor. I'm going to have to do my best to just accomplish [the task]. Even if I have to die for it.

FCF: After the fight with Funaki, what's up next for you?
RG: Who knows? I don't know. It's not up to me. I'm still working with my students, with my association. I'm still looking for ways to enhance the level of events. And to put an honorable perspective for every fighter out there, so they can have an honorable way to make a living under the martial arts code. There's a lot of things out there. I don't know what's going to happen. If a promoter asks me to fight, I will. If the possibilities are not much, I will just dedicate myself to the association, tournaments, and things like that. I just try to live day by day.

FCF: It was recently announced that Saulo Ribeiro will also fight in the Coliseum 2000. Do you have any comments about Saulo's debut?
RG: No, I think he has the potential to be a great fighter. He is already a great sport [Jiu-Jitsu] fighter and his debut in NHB will be something, I hope and believe, he will perform very well. And I am all for him. I will try to support him in every way. But in NHB, you never know, NHB is always unpredictable. There's nothing for sure. I just believe and hope that he can do well. Right now, I'm just thinking about myself.

FCF: Is there anything else you would like to say?
RG: Something that I would like to say is about the concept of winning and losing. I think a lot of people measure the effectiveness of a fighter only by the amount of victories they have. And sometimes, that's not exactly the way it should be. I believe you should have a wider perspective because martial arts is not only about winning and defeating [your opponent]. Martial arts is about putting your heart, your honor, your pride into something. And sometimes losing with honor is more important than winning with no honor at all. It's important for the audience, in a wide vision, to see the fighter as an example for others. And sometimes, being a huge violent guy, you have nothing to prove. Sometimes a huge, strong, 280lb guy, who smashes everybody doesn't have the elements to be fooled by anybody. Who else has 280lbs or who else has this kind of aggressiveness to be his student? Basically the principle of martial arts needs to be applied not just in the ring, but in life. And the audience should watch the fights, seeking elements that they can take and they can apply in life, even though they not fighters. It's a very tricky element, learning how to appreciate the fight. And how to appreciate the fighter and how to appreciate life itself. Winning a fight sometimes is meaningless because if a huge guy comes into a fight and wins the fight by smashing the other one or because he sat on someone's face, it doesn't prove anything. He's just waiting for a bigger guy to come and smash him. What is the concept? What can you take from that? Take your steroids and be strong and smash somebody with no method or grace or technique? I don't think so. A guy like that, with no honor, no respect, no technique, or nothing, an average guy on the street can get a gun and shoot him in the face on the street. What is the principle for that? It's just something for the NHB fans to start noticing how can Tank Abbott can enhance NHB. He was there giving a lot of people a hard time, until he got beat up and then he just disappeared from the scene. NHB events are not just to measure who is the strongest and most violent. NHB is to qualify the philosophy you apply and the techniques that you have and the moral structure you have to conduct your life and your philosophy.

FCF: Thanks for taking the time out for the interview.
RG: Thank you and God bless.