Renzo Gracie is leading the Gracie family into the 21st century. He is proof that the Gracie name still can, not only compete with the best, but can beat the best. He has a long list of titles in both NHB and in BJJ, including 1998 Abu Dhabi World Submission Champion, Reality Superfighting Champion and World Combat Champion. He knocked out Oleg Taktarov in a couple of minutes and stepped on Ben Spiker's neck after choking him into submission. Never one to rest on his laurels, Renzo never turns down a challenge and always is willing to test himself against anybody and everybody. I asked Renzo about growing up as a Gracie, his numerous fights, and thoughts about Wallid Ismael's recent interviews [the man who recently choked out his cousin Royce], which resulted in his brother Ryan pummeling Wallid at the 1999 World BJJ Championship. I caught up with Renzo at the Relson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy in Honolulu, Hawaii on August 11, 1999, while he was in town guest teaching for a week.

FCF: You and your brothers are the second generation of Gracies' born into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. How does it feel to have that kind of background and what does it mean to you?
Renzo Gracie: It means a lot! I believe, to be part of something so good and so great as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and to be part of the Gracie family, I couldn't ask for more. Every time I lay my head on the pillow at night and I talk to God, I thank him to be in the place that I am right now.

FCF: In the early days, the Gracie family was a lot closer and would often train with each other or switch from academy to academy. Who did you grow up training under?
RG: I grew up training under Carlos Gracie, Jr. at Gracie Barra [one of the top BJJ academies in Brazil, also from which the Machado brothers came from]. So for most of my life, I trained there. I also trained with Rolls Gracie, when I was a kid, up until I was 14 years old. My whole childhood, I was with Rolls Gracie and then after [I became] 14 years old, I was with Carlinhos [nickname for Carlos Gracie, Jr.]. Right when he died [Rolls died in a hang gliding accident, he is considered the best BJJ practitioner in the Gracie family], I went to train with Carlos. And we used to be very close in Brazil because even though Rio [de Janeiro] is a big city, it looks like a village compared to the United States. Like today, we are very spread out, all over the globe. So it is hard to meet each other and train together. That's what makes it hard.

FCF: Can you list all your accomplishments, including BJJ? I'll help start you off, you were the World Combat Championship Champion, Reality Superfighting Champion, 1998 Abu Dhabi World Submission Wrestling Champion, and the Pride-1 & 2 Champion.
RG: I fought a lot of Jiu-Jitsu competitions with the gi. The official ones, because before 1993 [the Campeonato Brasileiro de Jiu-Jitsu, the National Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Championships which started in 1993], there was no official competitions. Like if you were the Rio de Janeiro Champion, you would be considered the national champion. And I won many of those. I have been fighting since I was 6 years old, in competitions of that kind. But in the official competitions, I won the 1993 and the 1994. And I won the prize of the most technical black belt fighter in 1993. Then after that, I had World Combat, Reality Superfighting, then I had the Pride fight and Abu Dhabi last year. So I believe this is it.

FCF: How much Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu championships have you won?
RG: A lot, a lot. Only in one year, I won six competitions.

FCF: When you first started competing, how often were there tournaments? I understand that tournaments weren't held that often.
RG: In the beginning, it was very rare, it wasn't every month. But as I started growing up, Jiu-Jitsu began getting more popular. Then there was a competition every two months or every month. So, if you wanted, you could compete the whole year.

FCF: You and Craig Kukuk, the first American BJJ black belt, have been partners up until fairly recently. When your initial videos came out, you guys definitely raised the standard for the tapes that were out on the market. How did you guys get together?
RG: I met Craig at Royler's academy in Rio [de Janeiro]. So we became friends and ended up forming a partnership for the tapes that you saw. Then we opened an academy together in New York. It was my first school in New York with him as my partner, so it was good, while it lasted.

FCF: What happened between you and Kukuk?
RG: Craig was cutting the cake. So, when you cut the cake you can choose the piece, right? [laughs] I believe he was eating more than his own share. I would rather leave than keep fighting [with him] forever, so I let him go and I am doing my own business. And he's doing his own.

FCF: You now live and have a school in New York that has been very successful in both gi and non-gi tournaments. What's your secret?
RG: I train a lot and I enjoy teaching my students a lot. So when I teach, I train at the same time. That keeps me in shape and always training. People like the way that I fight, and like when I go to fight, but people also like the way that I teach too. So, I have a lot of students, a lot of people who have been following me since I arrived in the United States. I believe I am a better teacher even than a fighter. Especially because teaching is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life, and in fighting you have what you call your prime. When I start to get older, which my wife prays for it to come sooner, [laughs] I will stop.

FCF: How long to do you plan on fighting?
RG: I plan to fight for a long time! I want to past the barrier of 40 [years old]. So I still have 8 more years to sweat and have fun.

FCF: What are some of your training methods?
RG: I train a lot. Normally, I have a physical trainer, Dr. William Baumer. He trains me on the weight training and explosion training. I do a lot of boxing at the King's Way Boxing Gym in New York, on 28th street. And I train a lot of free sparring, like no-gi and open hand and training on the ground. Besides that I run a lot and swim. I work on positions a lot and then open sparring. In the beginning of every train, I train for more positions like passing the guard, defending the guard, or cross side, or the mounted position.

FCF: I always ask the top BJJ guys about their thoughts concerning the skill level of Americans. A lot of people believe that in time, Americans are going to be on top of the BJJ and the NHB worlds, mainly because of our physical attributes, nutritional information that is available and scientific training methods. What are your thoughts on this subject?
RG: It's not an issue of country to country that can provide better [athletes]. Especially because you have the internet. The word knowledge means that it is spread out. You can't control it. It would be the same as reading the book from Roberto Echo, The Name Of The Rose, where the church tried to hide the knowledge from the people. Today it's impossible. So I don't believe one specific country is going to have supremacy over another country. I believe it's going to come down to the man with the most will, the one who really wants to do it. What a lot of people get attached to is size and strength. I believe that we [the Gracie family] have proved this is wrong. I believe that you need technique, together with strength and speed. So I don't believe it's going to be one person from a specific country. I believe it will be one athlete with enough will to beat all the others.

FCF: What is your opinion on the skill level of Americans?
RG: They are very, very good, improving a lot. This is showing from day to day A lot of BJJ people are losing fights now. This shows that people are learning. It's like we said for a long time, only Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Gracie Jiu-Jitsu can beat Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. So they are learning our art, that's what our goal was for a long time. I believe that's the only way to improve. If you don't have skillful enough athletes to fight, you won't ever get better. So for every better guy I see around, the better I make myself to be. I have to train better to improve, this improves the art. That's why I believe so much in NHB. I don't see NHB as being a way to measure yourself. I see a way to improve the art.

FCF: A few of your students have entered NHB with success. Can you tell us more about them and any events that are coming up that they will participate in?
RG: Matt Sera is fighting two weeks from now in New York in another NHB event. He's getting ready, maybe soon, for UFC or Pride. He's a very good kid, both kids [Matt and his brother Nick]. I believe they are ripe enough to throw them in the cage. So I believe they are going to show an American athlete filled with 100% Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. You guys are going to like it for sure!

FCF: Relson [Gracie] believes that none of his students should fight NHB until achieving the level of Brown belt. Do feel the same?
RG: I believe that's true. First you can burn an athlete, if he doesn't have experience and he goes in there [in an NHB event] with someone with more experience and that guy puts a beating on him. What happens then? He will never be the same on the next fight. He may fear his next fight and once you have the fear on you, it makes it very difficult for you to win. You can see that in a lot of fighters that win, win, win and then lose. When they come back again they are never the same. It's like they lost a little bit of their will, you know. That's why you have to be very careful with your students. You have to put them there when they are ready. Normally, they are asking to go in when they are blue belt or white belt. Crazy! Since you are the leader of the pack and you are the teacher, you have to have the conscientiousness that you must only put him in there when he's ready.

FCF: What are your thoughts concerning your last two fights at Pride [Pride-1: vs. Akira Shoji and in Pride-2 vs. Sunae Kikuta]? I know you were disappointed in your performance.
RG: Yeah, I was having a lot of trouble because, like I was saying before with my partner [Craig Kukuk]. He wanted me to leave the United States. So I moved with my whole family. It was one thing when I was single and I wasn't a father. So it was different, I had only my mouth to feed and I didn't care. I was born naked and then I was dressed. Since I had a family, I was very worried. I could not even concentrate on my training I couldn't sleep the whole night. I would sleep in intervals, 3 hours, then I would wake up again. My head was full of things. Since my business was connected to him [Kukuk], I was fearing that I would have to leave the country. If he could do something bad, it would make it impossible for me to get a green card in any circumstance. So I had to deal with all these things. I had to spend a lot of money on lawyers during this time and I had to leave to Brazil, when my head was here, concentrating all the time on everything that was going on. One week or nine days before my fight, I had a stress attack. I couldn't even touch my neck with my hand. My muscles were so stiff, my whole body [was like this], I couldn't touch my neck. I had to take muscle relaxants to feel better and it started to improve on the day of the fight. On that fight in Rio [in Pentagon Combat where he fought Luta Livre stylist Eugenio Tadeau], even though I beat the guy the whole time, and the fight broke loose, the guy was kicking me front the outside [with eventually led to a full blown riot, which stopped the event], I did well. By the way, that guy died [the guy kicking Renzo]. Somebody killed that guy in Brazil. Someone shot him dead. It's good. All the cowards deserve that [kind of] end. [laughs]

FCF: That kind of thing only happens in Brazil!
RG: Yeah. [laughs] Once you're a coward, he kicked me that day, he probably kicked someone else on the other day. And they got him. So he got what he deserved, I believe. From there, twelve days or nine days later, I can't remember exactly, I flew to Japan. That's when I had the fight [Pride-1]. For the whole time, I couldn't believe Akira Shoji completely, but I didn't have the tightness, the explosion in my muscles that I would have had the whole time. But I dominated him completely. And back then, you didn't have the point system that they have today, so the fight was a draw. But I was happy with those two fights because that was the lowest that I have been in my whole life and nobody could beat me. I fought two tough guys. It's proven. Akira Shoji beat the crap out of Wallid Ismael. And fought Vovchanchyn all the way to the end of the fight. Even though he lost the fight it was a pretty even fight. So he proved that he is a very tough guy. I look forward to meeting him again, in good condition. And then [after that], as I start to train again and improve myself and was feeling better, when everything was set, I end up fighting Sunae Kikuta [in Pride-2]. So, I was in pretty good shape, I wasn't at 100%, but I was in good shape. I could fight 50 minutes without a problem, and the first thing that he gave me I took. [Renzo guillotined Kikuta]

FCF: What do you think about the Japanese fighters? The Japanese fighters are coming on strong, especially in the lighter weight classes. Their skill level is improving incredibly fast.
RG: The art came from there. They knew the basics, but they did not know how to train, how to put it together. Now they are improving and putting it together, exactly like the Americans and everybody else in the world. So they are showing very good technique and improving a lot. So I believe in a few more years, they're going to be there too. In fact, you don't have to just look for the Americans, you have to look out for the Japanese too.

FCF: I heard you are trying to gain weight. In your first fight you fought weighing under 180lbs, didn't you?
RG: In World Combat, I fought at 168lbs. Then when I fought Oleg Taktarov, I was 175lbs. And when I fought Kikuta, I was 180lbs, I'm 180lbs. right now. I'm still trying to gain weight, but it is very hard. The most that I weighed was 184lbs. This was off-season and I was eating a lot. I was lifting a lot of weights, but as soon as I started training again, the weight went down.

FCF: What weight do you want to get up to?
RG: I was looking for 185lbs, but it's hard. I can get there, but when I start training, it all goes away.

FCF: What do you hope to gain from this weight gain, just so you can have a little more weight on the guy, a little more power?
RG: Yeah, I'm not looking to fight the small guys. I fought Kikuta and he was 220lbs., and now they say he was 90 kilos, that would be like 200lbs., but when I got there, he was over that easy, he was like 220lbs. Same thing with Akira. They said he was like 82 kilos, like 177-178lbs., but when I got there he was like almost 200lbs. But I don't care, I'm looking to fight with the big guys. If I wanted a piece of cake, I would stay home and watch the kids grow, right? [laughs]

FCF: A few people have suggested that the weight gain affected your performance at the 1999 Abu Dhabi World Submission Championships. What are your thoughts about this year at Abu Dhabi?
RG: This year at Abu Dhabi, I was in very good shape for that. I was fine, but I fought an opponent who was running the whole time [Egan Inoue]. I was after him, the only thing he did better than I did was run. He ran for the whole fight, he avoided the fight for the whole time. It was so bad that the Prince [Tahoon] said he has to change the rules. He came and said to me, "you fought and he ran and he won. So how come that's possible?" I would rather lose the way that I did, than win the way that my opponent did. He came to me after and apologized. He said "sorry to fight that way, but I know if I fight you, I'm going to lose. So I had to run." When I put my head on the pillow, I can sleep well. I don't have to think that I'm a chicken, that I fought like a coward. So I was happy with that, even though that I lost. I didn't lose at all, it was a victory for me.

FCF: When do you plan on returning to NHB and are there any particular opponents that you would like to face?
RG: Real soon. Real, real soon. The whole time, I was opening my new school. I was renting a space and I finally, after all this trouble, get my own space going on 37th and 8th. [in New York]. It's finally done and it's probably going to be open in a couple weeks. As soon as I open that, I'm just going to train for No-Holds, cause that's what I like to do. I can't name people that I want to fight, I want to fight anyone who is ahead of the game. Otherwise, what kind of fighter would I be, if I choose my opponents? Let the promoters do that.

FCF: Would you fight in the middleweight division?
RG: I don't want to restrict myself to a weight division. Anyone would be fine. I'm looking for heavy guys, big guys, small guys, anything. I just don't want anyone lighter than me.

FCF: Don't you have some videos in the works? Tell us about it.
RG: I am editing out the old ones that I have with Craig and I have the Black Belt series that was out on the market a couple months before I broke with Craig. And I have a new four tape series, that is a no-gi series. It is very advanced. If people don't have knowledge of the previous tapes, it's not good to buy it or to watch it because it won't be any help for beginners. I finished the covers already. They are coming from Brazil because it was cheaper than here in the US. They should be in the US in the next week or week and a half. So as soon as they get here, I'm going to send the tapes to print. So I will have them ready.

FCF: You and your brothers (Ralph and Ryan) like to fight, in and out of the ring. What makes you guys so aggressive?
RG: We grew up as fighters, me, Ralph, and Ryan. We always enjoyed fighting a lot. We always fought a lot on the street. And we fought a lot in the ring. So, I believe this is within us. The three of us always have the same kind of personality. It's like we never mess with people, but we never let anyone mess with us. Since we are small and skinny, people would always mess with us when we were growing up. So that makes us fight too, through our whole life. I believe it is a little bit like the song "A Guy Named Sue." Have you heard this? [laughs] I believe its a little like that. A guy with a name like Sue will have to fight, get tough or die. So that's what happened. We were too skinny with the Gracie name. So people liked to pick on us sometimes.

FCF: Was that the reason people picked on you guys, because of the Gracie name?
RG: Some, some of those. And because you have bullies all over the place, in school, growing up. I believe it was the same to have a bully in your class. So, we never let them walk unpunished. They mess [with us], they have it. That was the deal. [laughs]

FCF: After Wallid Ismael's impressive victory over Royce Gracie [at the II Rio Oscar de Jiu-Jitsu "Copacabana Challenge" (Gracie Gear Challenge) on Dec. 17, 1998], he has been stating in every interview how he beat you in a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu tournament. Then he stated that Ralph was groomed for Wallid, and he beat Ralph too. A lot of people have never seen either of these matches can you tell us about the matches with Wallid?
RG: Yeah, you see, what Wallid tries to do…he is a very ordinary fighter in Brazil. He doesn't even compete anymore because any competition he goes in, he would lose easy. You saw this on UFC and Pride and all those events he tried to jump in, and how bad they kicked his butt. But what happened, he is a good Jiu-Jitsu fighter for a short fight. He can pass the guard once and score one point. He's a guy whose like 5' 3" or 5' 4", I don't know his height, with like 200lbs., full of steroids. And normally when he fights he uses a gi that is like…I don't know if you watched the fight with him [I didn't], but in like ten seconds, I had him in a clock choke. I took him down and I put him in a clock choke. Funny, this is the same choke that he got Royce in [II Rio Oscar de Jiu-Jitsu], so I had him in it. But what happened was his collar was so thick and the seam of the gi was so tight under his armpit, that his collar would never go across his neck. Even though he almost passed out, that saved him. I couldn't squeeze any more, so he was able to escape. So if you watch the tape, he went to Japan bragging that he had beat me. The Japanese guys said let's see the tape, so when he put on the tape, the Japanese looked at the tape and said "how did you beat him?" [laughs] "For the whole time, he is attacking and you are just holding him." I was 70 kilos back then, that would be like 150ls., 153lbs. I was very light. He was already 200lbs. There was a big weight difference, so all he did was hold me and pass my guard like three times in the period of one hour. In that fight, I wanted to fight with no time limit and no points, until one gives up. And no way he would take that. So he was a lucky guy, I believe. But it is open season on his head now because he is talking too much. My name is not a bone to be walking around with in dog's mouth. So, my brother [Ryan] already beat him in Brazil, a little bit, already [at the 1999 World Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Championships]. And I believe as soon as I see him, we are going to have some fun together. And Ralph said the same. It's funny because we hardly talk to each other and we never make these kinds of agreements to go after him. But as soon as he open his mouth, the three of us had the same answer. It's just a matter of time before this soap opera ends.

FCF: This goes right into my next questions which is Wallid's interviews seemed to bother your brother Ryan a lot. And Ryan, not being one to "let things go," let Wallid know it at the 1999 World BJJ Championships. Can you tell us what happened?
RG: Yeah, this is it. He talk, now he's gonna have to walk. Ryan just walked up to him and started to curse at him and he cursed back. Then Ryan punched him in the face and push him against the fence and pounded him for a few seconds until they were pulled apart. Ryan landed 7 or 8 punches on his face. And the next day, he [Wallid] left out of Brazil. That's exactly like him. Every time he sees my brother [Ryan], he's going to have to fight. Every time he sees me, he's going to have to fight. Every time he sees Ralph, he's going to have to fight. That's life for him now, you know? Until we are satisfied to have a piece of him hanging on a necklace around my neck, I won't be happy. I want to make a necklace for my son to wear and believe me, it's going to have a piece of Wallid on it. [Note: There is a video tape of Ryan fighting in Brazil, where he bites off a piece of his opponent's ear.] So he better be careful because we are coming after him.

FCF: You have been the champion of the Gracie Barra [BJJ] academy and have always been considered one of the best. What did you think when Wallid downplayed his victories over you and your brother [Ralph], by saying that Royce was the best and he beat the best?
RG: What happened is when you are poor technically-wise, you have to market to sell yourself. That's how he makes his living. He barks a lot and then he tries to make money for that, by getting a sponsor from some company. Thank God I don't need to do that to live. I can keep my mouth shut and walk as I walk. The problem is when you talk about people, you are going to have to do it. So, now for him, it's hell and he knows it already. He already chickened out and left Brazil. Why didn't he try to fight the next day? He took his plane ride away and left Brazil. He will probably end up moving to the United States, where the laws are better and can protect him from a street beating.

FCF: When are we going to see Renzo Gracie fight again? What are your future plans?
RG: I'm looking forward to fighting in December. I am going to start training right now, since the academy is going to be open in December. I had an invitation to fight in Pride next month, but it was too close. It was September 12, or something like that. And I had this trip planned already, I had the tickets to come to Hawaii. One month's notice was too short. So I said maybe if they want me to fight in the next Pride that's going to be in the beginning of December. So I'm going to keep on looking, if they have an opening. I don't train just to fight, I train for myself. I'm going to try and keep in shape. And if they have an opening in December, I will fight Sakuraba, I believe. That will be a good fight, I can't wait to be there.

FCF: Do you have anything else you would like to add?
RG: Well, just that it is open season on Wallid's head!

FCF: Thank you for the interview.
RG: Thank you champ.