You've probably seen him escorting his little brother, Royce into the Octagon, but not much else if widely known about Helio Gracie's second born son. Relson Gracie, one of the most experienced, but relatively unknown members of the infamous Gracie family tells us about his background, how he ended up living in Hawaii, producing so many well-known students and the controversy with Egan & Enson Inoue. I caught up with Relson at the Relson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy in Honolulu, Hawaii on March 8, 1999.

FCF: Why don't we start with a background on yourself?
Relson Gracie: Well, I was born in the right place. I grew up in the family where previous generations taught me jiu-jitsu. My daddy and whole family, not only trained in jiu-jitsu, but grew up around me. I am happy to be one of the members of the (Gracie) family spreading jiu-jitsu throughout the country. I think that the successful results of the Gracie family cause fighters, people, to follow us. This whole process comes from (because of) Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. That's the reason I'm born. My daddy tell that ten years before I'm born, he has plans to make me a champion, me and my brothers. I think this is the result of all the dedication and develop(ment) my family did to make us better than himself (Helio). But this is impossible. Helio Gracie is still the best.

FCF: What was it like growing up a Gracie?
RG: Well, I when I was a little baby, I was already involved. My daddy put his kids, 2 or 3 years old, already (on the) mats. All my family is happy to be around jiu-jitsu. At birthday parties, the cake had little mats and two guys fighting (as the cake decoration). When I am born, I didn't know what this (all) means. I start grappling with my brothers, (when) I'm a little boy, like 3 years old. I have this on tapes. And then, pretty much, that's (how) I remember all my life (being) involved with Jiu-Jitsu. I don't have a choice. Its like I was born to do that. And that's what I feel. Daddy always push us to be flexible. Get the feeling to spar, he grow us this way. And pretty much this is (why we have such) good results.

FCF: What belt rank are you?
RG: Right now, red-black belt, 8th degree, given from Helio Gracie. He is my master still. All this training and dedication is to get (recognition) from him. He's the only one who can change my belts. I wait for 20 years as a black belt and teach every day. That's the time I need to complete to become red-black belt and wait for the master to give it to you. In UFC, when Royce fight the first time in '93, I have (received) my red-black belt. I am very honored to be (a red-black belt). I (have to) wait 15-16 years to change (to) my red belt. The process cannot be changed. Now I need to sit down and wait, but I'm very happy my position. I don't want to rush. I keep my life the way (it is).

FCF: You also helped train your brother Rickson for both his famous fights with Zulu. Tell us a little about that.
RG: Well, pretty much the first (fight) Rickson have a very tough match. He got a couple hits and he hit Zulu hard. Pretty much a tough match. A very tough experience for Rickson. (Rickson) want to take the heart of the family (become the family champion). He told us, "Relson let me do (this), I can do it." I'm supposed to fight, but he (Helio) said "Rickson you feel like it?" "Yes, I can. Let me do it, I want to prove myself." He's 21 years old when he had this first match, (his first) professional fight (in) his life. It was very tough (because of) the size of Zulu and how much (of a) danger he is in his thirties. Zulu was the most dangerous fighter in Brazil at the time. The second fight, Rickson fight in Rio (Rio de Janeiro). And in this one (went better) because we all train together in the same school and (we are involved with) his train. He lines up us and then he train with everybody. I'm the last one. I did short trains with him, five, five, five minutes, but because he have 10 guys (before me), I (had to) wait for like 20 minutes to do a match with him and (that) pretty much get him tired and I try and surprise him. That's his (training method). But, basically Rickson got everything for fight Zulu on his own. I cannot say I coach Rickson, because in the time, my daddy train more him. I think the whole family helped and my daddy (kept) pressure (on) him and (taught) his way and his ideas. It's a team, a very strong team, working together, and (good) results come to Rickson.

FCF: I talked to a lot of Brazilians that say they would rather fight any of your brothers instead of you. They also consider you to be the best streetfighter of the Gracie family, why is this?
RG: Well I think the people show a lot of respect and friendship to say that. Someones, sure, see this around the streets. Because I'm born in Brazil and Brazil is a very tough place to be undefeated. In all my fights in Brazil, I (had only) one professional fight and this one I fight for free. I no fight for any money. I have (the) pleasure to defense the Jiu-Jitsu (and family) honor. I never fight professional fighters because my fights (were started when) people challenge me and the family. I did my job and represent the family for free. I'm honored to be there and be qualified to represent the family. A lot of friends maybe saw my fights on the streets (with quick) results. I (don't) have one fight that (took longer than) one minute in all my history, like 45 street fights. And basically, I (am not) too proud about that, this 45 street fights because (of the) people (I fought), someones don't know Jiu-Jitsu, some ones are tough in martial arts, some ones are bad guys, some ones have bad attitudes. I think all my victories only prove to myself how much control I have over the martial arts. Sure, I'm not scared of anyone because Jiu-Jitsu give me a lot of confidence. All my fights, this kind I have in the streets, (occured) only to protect somebody and defense myself. My intention is only (to) help people be a champion or be a good trainer, or good student, never push fights in the streets. I (don't) feel this wish to prepare someone to represent me in street fight, because I don't think he can represent like me. The guys can come close, if he train with me (this) is fine. To represent me, its going to take a while. And I need to make black belts or brown belts to do that. I keep do my job, and maybe this (is) possible, (and) this happen. I think (I have) this respect cause people see me in the streets, I think people believe I have a lot of reasons to defense myself. I always defense the honor of my family, my own honor in streets and then that's (why) God always help me, bless me. Its me, my Jiu-Jitsu, and something else push me from behind to make all these victories and be undefeated, still today.

FCF: When did you first come to Hawaii and why did you pick Hawaii to settle?
RG: Well, basically, Hawaii is a surprise why me be here. I think the reason is the beach and the paradise Hawaii (is). I lived in Monterey (California) in the first three years I lived in America. And then there I have a lot of trouble to teaching jiu-jitsu. People come to me and say "Where Jiu-Jitsu come from?" I say the Jiu-Jitsu is from Brazil. "What kind of martial arts?" I say grappling. The people say "Where did you learn this?" I say in Brazil and the people ask "Where is Brazil? In Argentina?" People (had) no interest in that and people don't know how much (more) effective (they could be) in the fights. This is in '85-'86. Maybe (if) I'm successful there (Monterey), maybe I'm live there for the rest of my life. I have the opportunity to come to Hawaii to visit and give a private (lesson) for a month for a Brazilian guy. He make mats for me in his garage space and then I start this process to be a teacher in Hawaii. After one month I (went) back to Monterey. Next week he called me. He say a lot of people keep asking him to bring me back forever. And I like the ocean, the people. Hawaii's a very good place to live, when you know the way to live in Hawaii. I make a lot of friends and I have a big team that support me for years. That's the reason (why) I'm comfortable here. And the way I got here was totally simple and friendly. Day by day I teach Jiu-Jitsu. Friends brings friends, somebody introduce me to somebody and then another guy comes. I always keep the best ones. I am happy here. Today I have roots, you cannot get me to go out Hawaii anymore. I feel like (this is) my land now, not my land cause I'm not born in Hawaii, but I feel like Jiu-Jitsu's my land. I have a lot of reasons to stay here. I am very happy to represent Hawaii. I have a lot of things to do here. To make new champions, that's my way. I have a lot of experience in competition, 22 years, undefeated. I'm very happy to be in Hawaii.

FCF: Probably the most controversial incident over the past year was the fight that broke out at the 1998 Pan American Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Tournament (held in Honolulu, Hawaii) between Egan and Enson Inoue and yourself? What's your side of the story?
RG: Well, that's a question everybody want to know. Basically, at the beginning of the story, a lot of people have strange feelings, me too, because I saw Egan like my brother before. (We had) a friendship, he hold my class, he help me when I travel, and when I see this stuff its hard to believe (our friendship) finish like that. I don't know what I did wrong to these guys. What is the problem I create for him act like that? I think martial arts is a business that depends on how good you are and how much dedication you (show). The business start change this thing. He open a business related to my business. He change the name and then he put Grappling Unlimited. That's a little bit different (than) Jiu-Jitsu. But what he teach? Jiu-Jitsu. (Enson) go to Japan and (when he fought) his first two fights, he represent me. He had a Relson Gracie stamp or patch on his shorts. And God bless him for these times. He knows how good he is and he can be a bit better champion if he keep with us. After two years, he be in Japan and he call me "Relson, I got here I beat everybody, Judos, Wrestlers, Sambo guys, Shootfighters, everybody I beat. The Jiu-Jitsu works so well, the Jiu-Jitsu (you taught me) is so effect(ive). I want to fight for you, I want to represent you. I feel wonderful for him, he tell me this because we (are) friends. And I said, Enson anything you want from me I'm ready to help you. A little later, I have a disagreement with Egan. Egan make some tapes or record tapes for Rickson's seminar and I really don't appreciate what he did (when) I ask him what happened. He (didn't) give me a good answer. This is the first point I disagree with this guy. Enson say he wanna be with me, but I say this is pretty much impossible because his brother don't respect me, don't follow the rules like he supposed to. He (Egan) had a wish to be a teacher too. And this started generate a little trouble between us. I no think he is ready to be a black belt. He still a blue belt when he compete for Machados, (and) get out of my school. He thinks its fine to call himself a black belt. I no agree. I wait for this process come (attaining a black belt). I don't know how long this is going to take. I respect the martial arts, I respect my masters, my family, everything else. If you have martial arts you have discipline. You don't have discipline, forget about the martial arts. Enson pretty much go away to Japan. Egan is the one who keep push us because he has his own school. He wanna make his name over us. To be important in Jiu-Jitsu, you need to beat a Gracie. That's the way you can promote yourself, fight us. I like this. I receive any match. I promote these tournaments in Hawaii for seven or eight years, and my school is still undefeated, (scoring) large points over everybody else. Sure I have more students, sure I'm better teacher, sure I have better numbers, yes, (there's) a reason for that. He brings his best students, he never have good results. My students always be champions and winners. On this day in the Pan-American (this is) what happened. Egan, complain about the referees. (A lot of people started to) scream about his gi. People (in the audience) 300 feet away saw his gi, they scream "watch his gi, watch his gi." Egan thinks it's my fault. I'm the one who pushes this. This is what people say on the Internet, web page, (they are) totally liars. Who is Egan to me? I can put him down, put a fighter to fight him. Like I put Bruno (Ewald), Bruno matched up with him in the first match (at the tournament). And when he see Bruno, I don't think he's too confident to fight Bruno at that time. His gi is illegal for the competition. Very, very clear point. And then Egan say I'm gonna change my gi. Then he walk off the mats and he take his gi to his car. He fight to get back at the door. I was sitting down at the judges table. I'm like 300 feet away from him, where he start the fight. He pushed himself to this point. When I see the fight start and the confusion, I go outside to broke (break up) the fight. Egan and Enson (are fighting with) some bouncers that I have at the door. When I get there I ask "what happened Enson?" He told me it's my fault. Egan start screaming it's my fault, my fault. He start call me bad names. I don't know what's happening with these guys. And then I said "Man, come on guys shut up. You guys want to fight, not today." Anybody (who) challenges me or have a problem with me, step forward man. Mess me up. Because I don't like people (that) call me bad names. I cannot fight over there because there's like 200 people watch, police officiers, doctors, that's no place to fight. Egan, Enson, you guys want to do this to me? You guys step forward and lets go to the park. I said this the next day. I RECEIVE his challenge. I want you guys to understand that. I'm never going to call out these guys because I don't think these guys have the experience to fight me in the streets or in the mats. Who's Egan and Enson to me? If the guys think so and they have a problem (with what) I say lets do it the next day. The guys supposed to call me. They didn't call me. They don't wanna. Then after, they (acted in a) criminal way and throw rocks at my school and damage my place. I don't think this shows any respect, any friendship, any honor. In the (eyes of the) law, I make these guys criminals. I (took out) a restaining order (against them). A lot of people want to fight him, sport way (BJJ tounament), and represent me. Like Marcello (Tigre) come now, Bruno (Ewald) want to (have a) match with him in gi anytime he want. He no respond to this challenge. Everybody want to challenge him because (they) see he has no respect me. Pretty much, he's gonna have his time. Lets see, his next fight gonna be (with) someone who wanna fight him.

FCF: You mentioned Marcello Tigre, a Brazilian NHB fighter and BJJ Brown Belt, claiming a record of 32-0 has recently started training with you. Can you tell us more about him and his up and coming fight at Super Brawl?
RG: Marcello Tigre is a very, very tough guy to beat because he's (takes things) personal. He's a fighter, first thing. I have experience with fights and I see a lot of fights. You see how much people have this (in the) blood. To be born in fights and then to die in fights. It's hard to have this temper, (a temper in which you) don't have a limit. It doesn't matter how much you get beat, the fight continues. Marcello's this kind of people. I am very honored when he want to come and wanna train with me. He's already brown belt and I understand his brown belt comes from (doing) street fights. He's 23 years old. He's young. He's very, very experienced. He has a lot of experience in his life with street fights. That what makes him dangerous. He don't care about switching punches, get beat and then beat up people. I talked to him a couple of days ago on the phone, and he wants me to coach him for his fights. I ask him, "Marcello, what do you fight for?" He said "Relson, first I represent Jiu-Jitsu, I want be your team, I want to fight, I love death, I want to promote myself, I want to fight." I said "but that's no reason to be on the mats, to promote yourself to get important." He said "no I like fights, that's my life, I can die in the world anytime, I wanna fight, that's what I'm here for. I want to fight for you." Then I tell him why is that important? A guy with a brown belt from my school can represent me. He's gonna come a month and a half before the fight to train with me (Marcello is presently in Brazil), but I told him that's not time enough to prepare (in order) to represent Relson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu the way I want. He's still a brown belt that I (didn't) give to him. I still believe he is a brown belt and how much potential he has in street fights. What I'm gonna do is work with him to show him some moves, certain positions, so he don't get beat and can beat the guy better. I don't think I have enough time to pass my Jiu-Jitsu to him in one month. That's impossible. He already has his own base, his own physical condition, and experience in the fight. Its hard to put him down, he likes to play the top. And that's his qualities. In a month, I'm gonna add to his Jiu-Jitsu. I have seen his fights and all his fights he wins. Sometimes on the bottom, people beat him up, bleed him, mess up his eyes, in the last 3 minutes, he sweeps the fight, mount him, beat the guy back, get his arm (armbars his opponent), and after that he stands up and drink his own blood. I seen him do that and I believe in him a lot. I want to wish him the best of luck. He come to Hawaii to push this fight with Egan, himself, he has his own reasons. He don't like the way Egan live. He says (it would be a) good match for him. He likes to fight these kinds of people. He wants to represent me in this sport. I don't need anybody to represent myself. I try to resolve my own troubles in my own defense. I keep myself prepared, but let's see the results for Marcello. I don't think he is 100% ready to represent me yet, but he will present a little of my Jiu-Jitsu. I have him for one month to prepare and lets see the results in one month.

FCF: There has been a BJJ school boom in Hawaii recently from only one school, which was yours, to eight different instructors and twelve schools on four islands. How do you feel about the growth of BJJ in Hawaii?
RG: I think it's great. I am very happy that I'm the one to bring the first seed to Hawaii. The first tree is very strong. Fruits start to become beautiful and nice. That's the fruits that come to start other mats (schools). I say mats because its my best students who control Jiu-Jitsu in the islands. I have all my ex-students like Brazilian Freestyle (Romolo Barros), from Kamole my ex-blue belt, (Carl Rodrigues), Grappling Unlimited (Egan Inoue), and Kaneohe (Jiu-Jitsu Club). All these clubs come from me. I see my kids play in the backyard. For me its very good, because if you don't have this thing (situation), the competition for me would not be the same. I like people who leave my school and I show the same results (keep winning). Who moves in (my academy) is a good thing, but who move out, I don't think they have a chance to win matches in the islands. That's what I see. I see all these people get out my school and the next tournament it's not the same. I'm here to represent my Jiu-Jitsu, I'm gonna stay the same and work around my new students. I have a brand new team, some of my students get out, my advanced ones. I start everything again, brand new, let's see the results of the next state tournament. I'm ready for all the schools in Hawaii and whatever (other) schools come. That's my idea, I want more schools in Hawaii, more is better, can compete more, better tournaments. I really appreciate my experience. People don't see how important experience is in these tournaments. I have an answer for anything (question or situation) on the mats. Pretty much when my students' fight, I fight outside. I'm sweaty just like them. I try to coach (as much as) I can. I only work for Jiu-Jitsu in Hawaii to make it better. I'm 100% happy because now I have a lot of people to compete against. And make this more exciting. I'm born to compete, maybe I'm too old to compete myself, but I want to put my team in the best fights and prove I make the best students.

FCF: What was it like when you first came to Hawaii? Was it tough to adapt, because you did not speak English too well?
RG: Well, basically, I speak very, very broken English and I still don't control the language the way I want. That's one problem, sure. I had this (problem) three years before in Monterey and I adapted to the situation. After, my first three years I wanted to go back to Brazil. I was not happy to be here (in Monterey) because I had a lot of problems with communication. But when I came to Hawaii, I had a little bit of English to help express myself. I feel because I come from a very small circle first. I live at the guy's house. In the same house I have the mats. I don't need to drive around, only to (when I want to) appreciate Hawaii. My friends come to me. I don't feel (uncomfortable) because I only have my friends around. The place became small, the garage space, so I went to UH (University of Hawaii). I moved to UH after eight months of class at the house. UH helped me out a lot. I have a friend Jr., who trains with me, he got me this place. So I stayed there for 7 or 8 years. At the end of 7 years, I have 750 students. And then I started having problems at UH. I cannot handle any more. I started get into trouble because (there was) too many people. The class became so big, I don't have a space for everybody, I moved to my own school. I (have been) here 2 and a half years. Now I can receive people better and give more access to train. My school has 3 mats. I am very happy to be in this area, where I can play, where I can (make available) mats for my students, where I can coach, where I can train. I am very honored myself to have a place like that.

FCF: A lot of things have happened since Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has come onto the scene. What's your opinion on it?
RG: Well, I want to tell you something, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a little bit different from my Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. I'm not telling you it's a different Jiu-Jitsu, no. It's the way GJJ is taught. It's the most simple, effective, system. It is very hard to get a black belt in GJJ. I think in the world, there is only 12-15 diplomas given by the original GJJ. BJJ changed a lot from competition. A lot of habits in BJJ, isn't used in my school. I condemn a lot of moves of BJJ that I watch in tournaments that I don't like. I see the good and the bad things in BJJ, but GJJ is the pure. In my class, it is one hour, only instruction. I show only 3 or 4 moves, that's it. The guys repeat it, but I show you a lot of details. Very good things, clear explainations, so it's easy for the student's to understand. I give (students) a lot of confidence to small (students) so Jiu-Jitsu will work on giants. I make my students like this. My students take advantage of advanced students of other schools. I keep track of the champions of Hawaii, I have the most. BJJ has a strong name in the world, yes, because GJJ comes only from the Gracie family. Everybody comes from GJJ, everybody in Brazil. All these schools are not going to use this name because it is not good for business. All these schools, Alliance, Pederneiras, Machados, everybody came from GJJ, but they won't say this. It's not professional. I think everybody is doing a very good job bringing BJJ because theres not enought Gracies to teach all this Jiu-Jitsu to a big country like America. BJJ comes from GJJ. GJJ is still undefeated. Its good to show people how much they can adapt BJJ to wrestling, Sambo, judo ground work, take downs, sparring, Luta Livre, anything goes for Jiu-Jitsu. People try to hide themselves, no it's grappling, but its nothing more than people adapting Jiu-Jitsu moves. I appreciate the support. What you guys must know is that only Jiu-Jitsu can beat Jiu-Jitsu. All these wrestlers, sambos, other fighters, grapplers, start to adapt something from Jiu-Jitsu to their martial arts. But please don't tell me Jiu-Jitsu (doen't) have anything to do with your victories, because Jiu-Jitsu is the most effective, most simple martial art. GJJ is the best system to be taught to girls, kids, people all ages. Everybody can learn.

FCF: Thanks a lot for the interview.
RG: Thank you very much.